Emmons Lagrande mechanical issue

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 15 Dec 2007 12:05 pm

Hello, I have a Emmons Lagrande that I changed the pedals and knees from the Day to Emmons set up. I read the posts about mechanical issues before I started and thank all of you for your posts. However I have encountered a problem that I need help with. It seems that the B pedal will not raise the third string up to the note A and even though the the 6th string raises just fine. The third string will not cooperate. I have noticed that the third strings pulling finger does not return to it's normal position after the B pedal is released and stays in the pulled position, and I have to reach under the guitar to move it back. I have put a new string on, a plain .011, and have been very patient trying to move the rod and fuss with the nylon tuner. But alas I am at the point of needing help solving this problem, any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 15 Dec 2007 1:01 pm

Wrong gauge string, or wound was put on instead of plain?

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 15 Dec 2007 1:05 pm

Thanks for the reply, no I used a plain .011 for the third string.

Johnny Harris · Post by **Johnny Harris** » 15 Dec 2007 1:22 pm

Richard, You didn't change anything on the B pedal to change from Day to Emmons, did you? If you only reversed the A and C pedals, and there wasn't a previous problem with the B pedal, I would suggest that there may have been a broken string ball end in the changer and while inverting the guitar and making other changes, the ball end wound up getting into the changer finger and causing some binding. I would check this first, since you say that the finger isn't returning correctly.

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 15 Dec 2007 1:38 pm

Johnny,

Thanks for your reply, and you are correct, I did not change the B pedals set up to go from Day to Emmons, but I did take all the rods off one at a time to clean the built up gunk off of them and clean the threaded nylon tuner ends. I also had to change the position of some of the pull rods because they were crossed over each other, and I did move some of the rod positions on the bell cranks and a couple on the changer end to make things line up with the changer. I thought of the strings ball end being stuck in there as you mentioned and did not see one, I will look again though as you suggest. The guitars B pedal was was raising both strings fine before I started swapping the other pedals and knee levers around and this problem just occured when I started to tune the strings back up.

Johnny Harris · Post by **Johnny Harris** » 15 Dec 2007 2:00 pm

Richard,
OK, then if you may have not gotten the rods back in the correct hole in the finger or bellcrank, you may not have enough travel in the third string pull, and may have the nylon tuner too tight and not letting the finger return to a true "at rest" position. I am not close to my LeGrande now but I could look later today to see how the B pedal is rodded,and e-mail you or post a PM. Do you have 4 hole bellcranks or 14 hole? Mine are 4 hole. Let me know if I can help.

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 15 Dec 2007 2:26 pm

Johnny,

Thanks again for the reply,the guitar has the four hole bell cranks. As you suggested about the ball end being stuck in the changer, I just went out into the garage and checked the Lagrande, pulled the spring loose, got a flashlight and the reading glasses and looked for and did not see a ball end nor a schard of string stuck up in the changer. Thanks for offering to look at your guitar for the layout, when you get a chance, at your convenience, I would certainly appreciate your checking the layout of the rods in the changer and also on the bell cranks because as I stated before I did change some of the string puller locations to uncross the rods and I may very well may not have put things back correct, and therefore not enough travel as you mentioned. I did however make a road map of the changer before I started the pedal/knee lever changing, but some of the rod hole locations at the changer and on the bell cranks had to be moved due to the crossing of the rods done by a previous owner. I tried to find a place on the internet that would give me the factory settings, if you will, on the changer hole location as well as the bell crank holes that are used when the guitar comes from the factory, and even read through pages of the forum under this section to try to find the factory presets, but did not find them. Your help is greatly appreciated. Richard

Danny Letz · Post by **Danny Letz** » 15 Dec 2007 3:47 pm

If you changed holes in the bellcranks on the B pedal, you may not now have enough travel to pull the string all the way up. If so, you will have to move the pedal stop to get more travel. Not having an Emmons to look at right now, I don't know how or if this can be done. On many guitars it is an adjusting screw that stops the pedal. You will have to back it out a little to get more travel. Also note that when everything is tuned up and working properly, there must be a small amount of free play to allow the finger to consistantly return to the stop bar. You are at present having to over adjust the nylon nut to get the string in tune which is eliminating your free travel. It would be a good idea to remember how much you moved the stop in case this is not the problem and you have to start from scratch. Hope this helps.

Johnny Harris · Post by **Johnny Harris** » 15 Dec 2007 4:59 pm

Richard, I can't get the chart to come out to where you can understand it using the posting here. Email me your address to:Harris507@aol.com and I will get you a rodding chart.

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 15 Dec 2007 5:46 pm

Danny,

Thanks for your reply and your suggestions they are appreciated.

Johnny,

Email has been sent and I will compare the rodding chart you have to how I have the guitar set up at this point and make the necessary changes. Thanks.

Johnny Harris · Post by **Johnny Harris** » 15 Dec 2007 7:26 pm

Richard, I E-mailed you a chart. Hope it helps

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 16 Dec 2007 12:07 am

Richard, once you have the guitar rodded correct.For 4 hole cranks.3rd string. You'll want the top hole in the bellcrank,Middle hole in pull side of the changer.Assuming you have the correct amount of pedal travel.If you still have to reach under and pull the finger back to the stop after it's been raised? It's most likey the rivet in the pulling member.Never had to replace one in a late model LeGrande.But have had to replace several in the early model Legrandes.....bb

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 16 Dec 2007 10:10 am

Take that string off. Stand the steel on that end, take a good flashlite. Do a visible inspection of the changer while working the changer with you finger. If there is a defect you should be able to see and feel it. Also you return spring may not be adjusted tight enough.
When I got my Derby I had some problems with sticking.I took it outside sprayed the changer with Wd-40 from the top and bottom, cleaning all the gunk out of it, then I used a good oil to lube it good.
Made a world of difference. one more thing is check the rollers to see if there sticking.

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 16 Dec 2007 10:39 am

Bill,

Thanks for your reply and I will take your advice and give adjusting the spring a try. I previously did as you suggested and cleaned all of the gunk out of the changer, carefully of course and did lubricate but the raise still did not return with the rod in place. I also did a visual inspection with a flashlight to see if there were any broken string fragments lodged in there. I will check again and look and feel for any defects. I am starting to think that maybe the rivet has broken, I hope not, because a broken rivet sounds like a major repair project. Richard

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 16 Dec 2007 1:49 pm

Richard, anything is possible I suppose but I have owned and worked on many Emmons guitars and I have never seen a rivet break in the changer. I am not thoroughly understanding what you are saying but here is what I would look for in the changer. I would suggest that if you have done the other things suggested and if the pull rod on the 3rd string is in the third hole from the cross shaft then check to see if the changer finger has not slipped underneath the stop. This is a plate that the lower return springs are mounted to and the spring keeps the lowering finger pulled against and the string tension keeps the raise finger pulled against. Some of the early LeGrandes had this stop plate mounted too close to the end of the changer fingers and in time the plate bent or wore enough to allow the changer fingers to slide under it. This can lock up the changer. I don't remember exactly how it happens without having a changer in hand but if the this happens, the string finger can somehow jump out of captivity and lock up. I recently repaired a LeGrande that had this problem and the owner had tried to force it back into place i think with a screwdriver and broke the string pin off prying on it, so don't do that. If the changer finger has slid back under you need to relieve the mount for the stop or maybe just bend it down so it can catch the fingers.
Jerry

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 16 Dec 2007 2:50 pm

Jerry,

Thank you very much for your words of encouragement regarding the rivet.

Let me have another shot at describing what is happening, if you would. I tuned the third string open to G#, then tune the third string with the pedal engaged to get the A note, I cannot get the string to tune up to the A note with the pedal down without losing the open tuning to G#, and when I get the string tuned up to A, with the pedal engaged and using the nylon tuner, when I then release the pedal I look back at the changer and the finger has not returned to it's normal at rest position and the third string open is no longer tuned to the G#. At this point, with the pedal off, the third string raise portion of the changer stays in about a 1/4".

I will check to see if the changer finger has not slipped underneath the stop and check the mechanism as you have suggested and see if I can find out what the culprit is.

From reading the text that you have posted on the forum in the past, and the responses others have posted about you, you are considered perhaps one of the best Emmons repair persons out there and I do appreciate your effort to help me.
Thank you. Richard

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 16 Dec 2007 4:01 pm

Richard, can you back the nylon tuner completely off and in doing so will the changer fingers return to idle against the stop? Try that then start turning the nylon tuner in and work the pedal in intervals to see if you can get it to raise and always against the stop, keep doing this until you have it raising to "A" and while you are doing this process observe the lowering finger to see that it is remaining firmly against the stop. If the lowering finger is pulling away then you need to increase the spring tension and you might need to move the pull rod to the center hole in the raise finger if it happens to be in the top one. It is possible if it is in the top hole (closest to the axle) it can pull the lowering finger also causing it to raise and lower at the same time which would keep it from raising all the way to "A" in the limited travel. Feel free to call me if you wish. (479)474-5304
Jerry

Richard Bachler · Post by **Richard Bachler** » 16 Dec 2007 4:23 pm

Jerry,

To answer your question, no, the changer will not return to the normal position when I back off the nylon tuner. I have to reach under the guitar and push the finger back into place.

I am going to have to wait until tomorrow after work to work on the guitar because we are having company for dinner and they just arrived, and my wife is calling me. So, I will be back, and thanks for your phone number, after I give your suggestions a try if things do not remedy themselves then I would like to call you, I will email first though. Until then. Richard

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 16 Dec 2007 7:14 pm

To clarify. I've never had a rivet break.Instead.They became loose.Causing a slight drag in the raise finger. I hope this makes more sense.As always Jerry Roller has excellant advice........bb

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 17 Dec 2007 1:35 am

I'm not familiar with the Legrande, do they have helper springs ?
Possibly, if the lower return spring is too strong, and there is a helper spring on the third, the string could remain in the raised position ?

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 17 Dec 2007 10:28 am

Richard,No helper springs on a LeGrande..Thanks bb