A PSG Buyers Guide - some helpful tips

[Johnny Cox]

The steel guitar market has grown so much in the past ten or so years. I would have never imagined having so many new guitars to choose from. The used market has also grown a great deal. Non of these guitars are cheap anymore. There is a reason, it cost a lot of money to build even the most basic PSG. So I can say with confidence that if anything most of the new brands are under-priced for the amount of time, material and talent that goes into getting just one out the door. Most builders are stand up guys with great reputations for honesty. One would think you could just call up a builder, tell him what you want, send a deposit and sit back a count the days. All that being said there are some things to watch for. Here are a few tips that are simply good business for both the buyer and the seller.

#1 Know what you want before you call to place an order. Color, pick-ups, how many pedals and knees and know your set-up (copedent).

#2 Do your homework. Talk to other players about their guitars and their buying experience. Everyone thinks they have is the best, as they should but take time to play as many guitars as you can before you decide.

#3 Don't try to buy a $6,000 guitar for $3,000. Don't go shopping at a Lexas dealer for a Chevy.

#4 When you finally decide what you want then contact the builder or dealer and place your order.
This person should be able to give you the following info when you talk to them the first time.

A)How much you guitar will cost you including tax and shipping.

B)How much your deposit is. Never ever give them more than they ask you for. All builders have set deposit amounts. Some are refundable some are not. Make sure you know either way. Most builders will not ask you for additional money but some will ask for as much as half the total price. This is a RED FLAG WARNING.

C)Know your projected delivery date. No builder can hold to that exact day every time but they should all be within about five to seven days.

D)Get all of this in writing even if the builder or dealer is your best friend.

On the day you order your builder should have from you the following.

Model, color, number of pedals and knee levers, pick-ups, and any special instructions such as taller or shorter than standard height. Any accessories you want to show up when your guitar is shipped. And of coarse your deposit.

You should have the following.

#1 Conformation of the order that includes all the above information.

#2 A recipt for your deposit.

#3 It should also include your balance due and the projected delivery date

#4 You should also insist on a default option if the builder does not get your guitar to you when promised within that five to seven day span either side of the delivery date.

Absolute don'ts.
Take no ones word, get it all in writing. This is a business transaction. You will have ample time to be buddies after your business is done.

If the builder ask for more than a normal deposit find another builder. If your builder calls you three months before your guitar is due and ask for the balance don't do it. This could very well mean he / they may be in financial difficulty and it is not your job to help them out of it. This is the time you may want to consider cancelling your order.

You will be asked to send your balance before the guitar is shipped. This is fine but ask for a photo of your completed guitar. Your guitar should be sent to you the day they recieve final payment or no later than the next business day.

Finally ask the builder for a five day period in which time you can make sure the guitar has what you asked for. This is not a play it / I don't like it period but a time in which you check the guitar to know that you got what you ordered.

You will normally have no problems with the caliber of people that are building guitars today. But there are those that will tell you what you want to hear to get your money. About twenty years ago I ordered
a guitar from a well know company and was told I would have it in six weeks. Six months went by and nothing. So I called and got excuse after excuse. After nine months I simply canceled the order. Had they told me it would take up to a year I would have been fine. But that's not what they told me and I had nothing in writing.

Used guiutars are a different animal. I suggest you play before you pay if at all possible. If not make sure you are getting the guitar at market value that way if you don't like it you can just sell it.
When buying a used guitar from a dealer you may have to pay for the guitar plus addional fees for set-up changes. If you don't know how to work on guitars then don't try to save $50 or $100 bucks doing it yourself. Let the pros do the change.
Once again Don't pay in full until it is ready to ship or be picked up.

When buying any guitar it's always best if you can pick it up. That way if you have any adjustments to be made they can do it then and save you the cost of returning the guitar to them later. I truly hope these tips help you in the purchase of your next guitar.

Happy Steel Shopping

[Dion Stephen]

thanks that day is in the distants but it is coming.

[Dan Meadows]

Me too. Thank you Johnny.

Dan

[Mike Mantey]

I have to say I somewhat disagree.

Mullen is here to provide an excellent buying experience. My goal is 100% customer satisfaction. I would much rather have Mullen customers (or soon to be) call me and talk about the guitar they want. There are way too many opinions on what to get (usually whatever the asked person is playing).
I want to build a guitar that suits the buyer, not his friend or advise giver. Example: Many people tell somebody to get something they do not need or will not use, I have experienced this many times, they order it because so and so told them too, and they get the guitar and have no idea what they got.

I like to treat each and every sale as its own deal. In other words, buying a custom steel is something you should get the experts to help you with. Call the manufacture, or creditable dealer. No one will be able to tell you more than the manufacturer. There are many options available for most steels, there are many options people wouldn't even know about when placing an order.

Here, you can place an order (pay deposit) and go through the available options and colors, copedeant, etc. Sure changing stuff will change the price, but all that can be determined when added. We give an approximate delivery date, it is not a guarantee and it may change if options, colors, etc change.

Here is an example. A guy calls and wants to order a guitar, but does not know any of the stuff Johnny wants him to know. So I talk with him on the phone and we narrow down the model and the basics and he places the order. Now within the next 2 months we talked more, and I got him color samples, etc. Nailed out a copedeant, built a relationship, and now have everything I need to build his steel and he only has to wait one more month (3 month delivery in this case) for his guitar. Now that seems better to me than, trying to figure all this out on your own, or from your friend which thinks he is the one ordering a guitar (telling you everything to have on it, etc.) Then placing the order maybe 3 months later, then having to wait the delivery time at that point, which is probably longer now, and then getting something with stuff that he was not sure he wanted in the first place.
I have seen this too many times to ignore it.

There are many things I agree with Johnny, but here at Mullen we want to make it a pleasurable experience and make sure the customer is getting the truly unique guitar they were looking for.

Bottom line you should definitely trust your builder, and do some research. Pay what you feel comfortable with paying, knowing any deal could go bad, but that is where the research comes in, if it has happened in the past be careful. Make your own decisions. We are all different, buy what YOU want. Know what you are buying and buy with confidence.

If placing an order with a dealer, you would probably need to know more than if placed with the manufacturer. It is hard for a dealer to keep changing an order with the manufacturer. Just be aware, talk price, know what it will cost, know the guarantee and warrantee.

[Pete Burak]

All the above advice should apply to total refurbishings, also.
Anyone have any other points of consideration?

[Ron Page]

I think a trip to Scotty's ISGC--or another large show-- is the best way to narrow some of the many choices and options. You can actually get a feel for the machanics of the various brands and answers to most all questions you might have--save for those better suited for your psychiatrist...

If you guys don't quit talking about this I'm going to end up with a 2nd steel, I just know it.

[A. J. Schobert]

Johnny are you still upset?

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Also, the most important thing to me, is: Don't buy ANY Pedal Steel on Looks alone. I've seen many great looking steels, and that was about all they were good for.

I've seen many great players who had to constantly keep a tuning wrench handy while tuning between each song on stage. As I'm quite certain everyone else on here has too.

Make sure you check the undercarriage, look at EVERY detail. If you see anything that looks as if it could have been done with better quality workmanship, or materials, keep checking until you do find the quality that you feel is the very best it can be.

Looks should only be considered, after making sure you are getting, what "YOU" consider to be a VERY HIGH QUALITY instrument.

Don't just try one out. "CHECK IT OUT." Remember the workmanship and material used is what determines, down the road how well it's still going to be performing, and especially how well it stays in tune.

Without a doubt, the way competition is in todays market, with numerous brands, and each claiming to be the best, it's going to come down to the winner being the one who DOES put the best quality of parts and workmanship into their brand of Pedal Steel.

[Johnny Cox]

Mike, I don't see that we disagree at all. If you will read my post again you will see that I plainly said DO YOUR HOMEWORK, researce is the key. I never implied that anyone should not trust his or her builder. You have to trust them. That's why the research, check their track record. You are correct, there are many opinions including the builders. Many buyers get stuff they don't need because someone else has it or their instructor told them to get it. Most folks know how to sift through opinions. It is the buyers choice and if he does his homework the builder will not get blamed for selling him something he did not need. I had many customers that asked for what I thought they did not need. Some would take my or others advice some would not. Lastly, as we all know nothing is ever etched in stone. Changes are made after the order is placed but a buyer needs to go into this with some idea of what he will get. I am not trying to do anything in this post other than give a few tips to my fellow steel players. Most of these guys and gals work very hard for their money and should have as much info as they can get.

A.J.
I have nothing to be upset about. I have the best wife any man could ask for, a wonderful son and daughter, a lot of wonderful friends, a good job playing the music I love and my health is better than it has been for years. Nothin else matters.

Fellow forumites, please do not take this thread as anything but what it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks Johnny for the very insightful suggestions on buying a steel guitar that should be a help to many players.

By the way, I've heard several great TX steel players tell me your playing better than ever and looking relaxed!

Think about it...You've got it made...you're married to Joan -- she teaches you all those great steel licks -- you're living in TX -- you are playing some of the best music anywhere -- you are thinner than me and Pat Coyne -- you're one of the best steel picker out there -- you're...WAIT A MINUTE...I'm now jealous!!! HA HA See you both at Christmas for lunch on me!

[Bob Hoffnar]

Here is some ballpark numbers I give people that are thinking about getting there first pedal steel.
1:
Basic extra stuff:
Volume pedal
Picks
Bar
Cables

Somewhere under $200 for standard pro level gear. It can be a little cheaper or you can spend more.

2:
Amp
Something that works for practice around $100

3:
Student Model:

Used Starter $600
New student model $800 to $1000
I let them know that for many of the student models they will want to upgrade if they get into it.

4:
Used S10's that are pro level instruments but not collectable from $1000 to $1400

New pro level from $1600 to $6000


This is for your basic 3 and 4 E9 set up.

[Bill Moran]

Johnny, I'm with you on this one. A couple years ago I ordered a new steel guitar from someone I thought would shoot straight with me. Didn't happen though.
I paid 50% down. I was promised 6 month delivery and it took a year. After 9 months I was getting pretty mad and I tried to cancel my order. Couldn't do that without loosing all my deposit. But worst of all,about a week before delivery, I ask the question,
what if I had freight damage or something wasn't right like fit and finish. I was told that repair was my only option. I had nothing in writing.
Anyone willing to pay 4 or 5 thousand dollars for a pedal steel, most likely, have done there homework. They know what setup and options they want.
I'm with you Johnny !! When that much money is involved a detailed contract should be in hand before money changes hands.

[Wayne Franco]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate it when a top pro player chooses to share their experience with everyone. New players should absorbe every bit of information you guys have to offer. That is what this forum is all about. Believe me, it couldn't come from a more knowledgeable person. I sat there and watched you please people for MSA, the likes of guys like JD Maness. If you can do that the rest are duck soup as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you Johnny, keep up the good work.

Sincerly

Wayne Franco

[Johnny Cox]

Wayne, thanks a bunch. I'm just one of the guys and I have learned a few things over the years, mostly the hard way. There are great guitars and great guitar builders out there but no one can read minds. In this day and age one must look out for one's self.

[Mike Perlowin]

I wish to add one more thing. I think anybody buying a steel has to think about the weight of the instrument.

We're all getting older, and some of us no longer have the strength and stamina we had when we were young. I know one player who just bought a Millennium D-10 because he has a fractured vertebra in his neck, and was having trouble carrying around his previous wood guitar. This player told me he was quite happy wit the tone and mechanics of his previous guitar, and the only reason he switched was because of the weight.

(Some of you will remember that 5 years ago I also fractured a vertebra, in my spine, but I've completely recovered and am not suffering from any aftereffects from the injury.)

The light weight of the Millennium was the deciding factor for me to buy one, not because of my previous injury, but because my house is not on street level and I have to contend with stairs to get to and from my car.

Besides MSA, Carter, GFI, Excel, and Williams, and probably a few other builders all make light weight steels.

There are some wonderful steels out there, that weigh a ton. They may be excellent instruments, but I suggest in addition to checking everything else out, a prospective buyer also pick the guitar up, and think about what it will be like hauling it around.

[Larry Lorows]

Hi guys,

I agree with everything that has been said but I do have a question. Why shouldn't a new or inexperienced player accept advice on what options to buy? Maybe I don't need it at the present but why not look to the future and try to anticipate.

When I bought my first new guitar, 33 years ago, I purchased a 14 stringer. I wish someone had told me I only needed a U12. I could have saved money then and maybe added another lever or a course to study,etc..

Larry

[Dan Meadows]

I always welcome helpful advice and when a request for advice is asked on an open forum I really do appreciate
the response. The experiences of many people who have been involved with the Pedal Steel Guitar can be a great well of information. I respect the posts of those who take the time to be of help by sharing the knowledge they have gained even if they are relatively new to the instrument. Those who have been involved with PSG for many years can give EXTREMELY valuable information and insight. Thanks to Johnny Cox for some
helpful tips on buying and for all the following responses from Forum members.

Dan

[Johnny Cox]

When I started playing the first guy I heard was Hal Rugg. My first pedal guitar was a D-10 with 8 and 1. My parents bought it for me. It had Emmons set-up on the pedals and the knee lever lowered 2 and 8 1/2 tone. That was pretty standard in 1968. When I got my first new Sho-Bud I wanted Hal's set up because he was my hero. That's what I got. Over the years as I have heard other players and wanted to get inside thier head I have changed my set-up many times. Saying all that leads me to this. If you are getting ready to buy a psg think about your hero or heros. Look at thier set-up and what guitar they play. If your hero is Lloyd Green for example and you want to play more in the direction that he does then you don't need a D-10 with 8x8. If you want to play E9th and C6th, then 8x5 standard or SU-12 may be for you. If you know you want to dig deep look at Buddy Emmons or Paul Franklin or Tommy White or many of the other pro players set-up. These guys have done the experimenting for you. Same thing applies if you have been playing for years and just want to add a couple changes. I have so many heroes that I've had every set-up known to man I think. I have three guitars right now and they are all totally different. The past couple weeks I have been playing an old permanent Sho-Bud with 8x4.I am really having to hunt for stuff but most of it is there and it is making a better player out of me. This is how I look at things when I get another guitar be it new or used. I think I got a bit off topic but I'm sure you guys can see the connection.

[bob drawbaugh]

Johnny, thanks for the insight. I have not bought a new guitar since 1983, not for myself anyway, but that's another story. In looking into a new steel it is hard today to decide. There is so many great builders today. In 1983 there was only about three that I would have considered. When you think you have it figured out you go to Scotty's and play and see all the great guitars then you start all over again. These are all good points one should consider when buying a steel guitar.

Mike, I don't think it's a good Ideal to call a buider if you don't know what you want. That would be like going to buy a car and not knowing what you wanted, color, option, model, ect. I think one should do their home work first, as Johnny said. Then know what they want, then find a builder they can work with. Most of this will take care of it's self. Because most are brand loyal and will buy that brand. The only thing they will need to decide is color, model and setup.

Now can some one tell me what to buy. Do I want wood or Mica. Metal necks or wood necks. D10 or U12. What color, oh black, no red. Oh it was so simple in 1983.

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Is there a steel guitar price guide? The Vintage Guitar Price Guide is great, but not for steels.

[Kevin Hatton]

The price guide is price vs. demand. There is no standard.

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

The Vintage Guitar Price Guide lists thousands of models and the years they were made with the average price they sold for. The people who report on sale prices are dealers, and I don't know how reliable the data is.

You can also look up a model on eBay's closed auctions and see what things went for. Again, I don't know how many examples you'd need for a reliable estimate on a particular model and year. However I think there are enough examples to say that eBay average selling prices are generally about 20% less than the average selling prices reported in the Vintage Guitar Price Guide.

If you had the time and know-how, you could gather asking prices on gbase and compare them to prices in the Vintage Guitar Price Guide. My guess is that the average gbase asking price for a 1959 Brand X model A in excellent condition would be about 10% more than the average VGPG selling price.