Boo Wha Mod for Pedal steel?

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 14 Nov 2007 1:37 pm

Steelers,
Maybe this has been covered before, couldn't find it in the archives. Has anyone ever built in a Boo-Wha tone circuit into a steel? I have tried to use those Fender and Bigsby combo volume/tone pedals a few times without great success. The side movement with a volume seems awkward to me. I was thinking of putting a 100K pot and .05mfd cap into the body of the steel and hooking it to my 8th pedal. I hardly ever use this pedal anyway and could avoid playing string 9 and 10 on the C6th neck when doing the Boo-wha thing?

Does anyone have a picture or some experience with something like this?
Thanks
Bill

Post by **b0b** » 14 Nov 2007 2:11 pm

The tone knob on a Fender 1000 sounds pretty good.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 16 Nov 2007 1:51 pm

Bill-Dont get a standard tone pot as it is too gradual. Try and get a quick change tone pot from bass to treble. that works good.

I had a Rocco tone Expressor pedal that worked very good. Our good friend and member ,Jody Carver still has one....al.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 16 Nov 2007 1:59 pm

Didn't Speedy West replace his tone pot with a doorbell switch in order to get the same effect?
At least, that's what I heard...

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 16 Nov 2007 2:11 pm

Al,
Is there a name for that kind of pot? Most pots are either Audio or Log, taper. I have both and had thought
of making up a log arm bel crank to add to the cross rod on my Emmons. I could also spin up a smaller diameter bushing for the end of the pot so I get a very fast action between the long crank arm and the smaller shaft. I'm not sure I would have enough throw even with this. The door bell idea sounds worth trying. Fender had the Tone button idea around the same time and I hear that works well... guess I need to start tinkering.
Thanks
Bill

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 16 Nov 2007 3:21 pm

log vs linear I beleive is the pot differance

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 16 Nov 2007 3:22 pm

Actually, I bet the pot for a wah wah pedal would work

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 16 Nov 2007 4:35 pm

a forum member whose name I forget (sorry) was making them for a while. I bought and still have one. It is a small box with a button on it that plugs directly into the guitar jack. Its interesting but the button unfortunately adds a clicking sound I cannot live with. Perhaps you could search the old forum in the electronics section for "boowah" and find this gentleman, but im not sure he will still be making em, nor am I sure I would recommend purchasing one (because of the button noise).

I know nothing about electronics but I think there was just a resistor or something in that little box that when the button was pressed would lop off your high end for a second...maybe you could try to replicate, try different resistors and find a noiseless button/switch to make a better version of what I bought (these were cheap btw, maybe $20)

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 16 Nov 2007 7:09 pm

Ben-I it was forum member, John Bechtel who had some that he made, I bought one, but it didn't do what I wanted like Alvino Rey's. I don't know about electtronics,but Steve may have something.

It just a tone control going from Bass to Treble. It is NOT a Cut-off switch that gets that sound.That is too quick.These old tone contols used to be standard on every steel guitar built in the 30', to the 40's,and the 50's. There used to be an overall volume control on the steel too. Now all the modern steels do NOT have either of them, why not???...al.

:)

James Harrison · Post by **James Harrison** » 16 Nov 2007 8:48 pm

What Tone Controls do is only reduce the highs not increase the lows. A higher value Capacitor will reduce the highs and a higher value Pot will increase the highs. When you start adding Volume Pots, Tone Pots and Capacitors between the Pickup and Amp you change the tone of the Pickup. Many players get a Pickup they like and alter the tone, if they want to, in the Amp,and don't change as that tone is their signature. Your Volume Pedal has to be the right Ohms value for your Pickup or it will change the Impedance Value and alter your tone. I think most Passive Pickups need a Volume Pedal Pot of about 500K ohms with an Audio Taper.
Now remember I am 76 years old and this is how I remember it.
I have always told myself.
It is Not What I Don't Know That Will Cause Me Problems, It Is What I do Know That Ain't Right That Will Cause Me Problems.
James

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 17 Nov 2007 5:52 pm

I tried a few things today, went down to my local hardware store and bought a momentary door bell type button. I installed it in an old Wha Wha pedal that I had gutted and which is the basis for my experimentations. This works to simply roll off all the highs and cause the guitar to sound like mud. It as others stated also causes a click which isn't something I could live with. So, while it does do a Boowha type effect its not what you hear on any of the old recordings. After this failure I went and took a 100k pot and wired it up to the same .047 MF cap and this works better. I can use this on the left foot, but the amount of foot movement to get from full on to full off prevents some of the classic Speedy West type Boowha hits. It is more Boooowha vs Boowha. The Wha 100K pedal pot is an audio taper I believe. Another notable problem is that when I run this even with the pot off it kills some of my guitar tone. I need to figure out if the pot actually never goes to full open or what. It may be that the mechanical movement of the wha pedal won't let the full rotation of the pot happen. I may not get the full effect of the Cap or can't shunt the cap out of the circuit completely. I may need to go from a gear movement to something with string like the old fender pedals. In the end I need to get the full rotation of the pot from endpoint to endpoint very quickly to get the Boowha and all speeds in between. Then I can pretend I'm Alvino Ray or Speedy west etc.

I never could get where I could do that stuff with my pinky like they did on fender lap and pedal steels.

Anyway back to the drawing board.

Thanks
Bill

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 17 Nov 2007 6:18 pm

Bill- It would seem like the things we did in the 30's and 40's s were so simple for us and now everything is so complicated. We just took that tone control for granted on our steels in those days. It is just a big tone control and if it has the right taper, pick your note or chord wiith your thumb and turn that tone control from Bass to Treble quickly. I did that with St.Louis Blues, Wabash Blues, Mamma Blues, Hindustan, besides making it sound like it is talking, your could Boowah some big fat chords and turn you volume up and bounce the bar , no picking and work that tone control. I had a song "Whispering" that I did it on Tilley's Website back in March. I did that recording in 1950. If anyone wants to hear it, I will post it again on Tilley's site for all to hear. I can put it on for my November tune. Ok?...al.

:)

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 19 Nov 2007 4:22 pm

Al,
I'd love to hear it if you have it, if for no other reason than I love that 40-50s Hill Billy Jazz style Steel. Sounds like I'm missing more than just the tone pot. The technique is also something I need to work on. I suspect that pedal steel players don't play with as much vigor today because the pickups and amps are hotter than the old console steels. Just a guess. I have a 52 Fender Triple 8 (non string master) that has a pretty good tone pot in the right location. I could use it but still would have to really practice the technique. What I really need is something I can use to get that Boowha effect on my modernish 60s and early 70s D10 pedal steels. I Was using a modified Wha Wha pedal as mentioned before but this cuts a good bit of gain off the guitar, perhaps a pass through switch would be a good compromise... Sure wish someone just sold something that was designed for this. I saw a Goodrich made side to side Wha/Volume pedal that works better than the original Bigsby and Fender units. I've only seen one but this would be a great thing to find.
Don' think they make them any more.
Thanks
Bill

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 20 Nov 2007 5:23 pm

Bill,

I hear Fender is reissuing the old Fender Volume/Tone pedal next year. I have an original, which is perfect for the doo-wah sound, but you can get the same effect with the tone control on your guitar, if you have one.

In regards to technique, you mostly hear the doo-wah in conjunction with a bar crash. In other words, instead of picking the notes, you slam the bar down across the strings and simultaneously activate the tone control from bass to treble. I don't know if this would work on a ten string. Might be too chaotic. I think you'd be better off playing that Fender.

In the films I've seen of Speedy West, he always used the tone knob on the guitar. I think the doorbell mod was invented by his would-be imitators. I have a doo-wah button installed on my Fender 1000 that works pretty well for rapid fire doo-wahs. I don't know exactly how it's put together, but my friend John Pope, who built it for me, said he had to put in some kind of filter to get rid of the clicking sound.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 20 Nov 2007 10:31 pm

You want to use a 1 meg Ohm audio taper pot with a .05mfd cap.

That's what I have have on my Tele, Fender 400, and Fender Stringmaster. It goes from very dark to very bright with just a flick of the pinky.

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 20 Nov 2007 10:59 pm

Alvin,
I'll have to try that 1 meg Audio pot! with my Wha Wha pedal, sounds like it would be a better solution.
Tim,
Didn't know Fender was reissuing the Volume/Tone pedal. I have an original which doesn't really do the trick. It tends to make the guitar always muddy sounding and kills the Gain. Maybe, I need to give it a tune up.

Anyway thanks for all the tips, I'll see if I can come up with a workable solution this weekend and Post it back to the list.

Thanks
Bill

William Fraser · Post by **William Fraser** » 21 Nov 2007 2:51 am

Bill, I recently had the pleasure of wathhing Bobby Koefer close up, on his old 3 neck fender,NO doubt ,technique was quite different for the pre pedal guys. Bobby was like an octupus hands moving from neck to neck, & appeared to move his pots on the fly, while smiling & waving & sounding like a whole horn section,But he had the full range of tone,it should be witnessed, it is more than a pot or pedal!

Billy Lee Fraser

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 21 Nov 2007 9:07 am

Bill-That I meg pot might work. Charles Tilley has posted my old 1950 recording of "Whispering" on his Website. The guitar was my Original 1942 Gibson Electra-harp with 8 strings and 6 pedals, straight into the board , so the tone was flat.
\
But I did the tone control thing, with the boowahs and bar crashes, on parts of it ,without picking. The crowd always liked it. Back in 1938 I had a D8 without pedals of course,and did that neck hopping etc, too. Most of us old timers did that in those days. Alvino Rey was my idol then.....al.

:)

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 Nov 2007 9:18 am

Alvin is correct. Old Danny Gatton trick on Teles. The 1 Meg pot does in 1/4 of a turn, what a 250K pot does in it's full sweep. You'll find it's a bit more difficult to find your desired tone, cuz the change happens so rapidly. Never been a real problem for me on my Teles though. I think on steel, if you don't want to have to hit a switch to take it out of the circuit, you'd want the pot to be in it's "full treble" position when the pedal is up. I thought the doorbell switches were used to achieve "stuttering" sounds. I didn't realize there was also a cap involved!
BTW, my late 30's Gibson Grande D-7 has a boowah lever installed by a former owner. Right above the pikin' area of the top neck. It uses a 1 Meg pot, and works well, although I no longer play that guitar.

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 21 Nov 2007 10:16 am

Thanks to all of you for the tips, I'll dig around and see what I can come up with this weekend!

Al what is the link for the song?

Thanks
Bill

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 21 Nov 2007 10:26 am

Bill-Look under "Steel Players" and find "Songs heard around the world", Charles Tilley can also be found in a search..Thanks and have fun listening to all the great steelplaying by our Forum Members..al

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 21 Nov 2007 10:50 am

Thanks Al,
Nice playing! Don't think I've ever knowingly listened to an Electro Harp. Its got a cool tone. What was the tuning? what kind of changes were on the pedals? I heard a couple times where you were pulling strings up like a modern E9 would. I hear what you were mentioning about the Tone Button and knob.. both sound really cool, It didn't sound like you were doing bar crashes but maybe they were just more gentle than the Speedy west style frantic crashes.
Thanks
Bill

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 21 Nov 2007 11:52 am

Bill-Thanks for listening, isn't Tilley's site great.Glad you liked it. When I did the boowa and bar crashes & bouncing the bar, no picking,in the tape, I didn't equalize the volume , it was loud enogh when I was picking. I should have increased the volume when I bounced the bar and did the boo wah, I didn't use a volume pedal as had both feet on the foot pedals, back in those days.No knee levers , of course.

I had a E6 tuning one it, top down E-C#-B-G#-E-C#-B-G#. We didn't have strings to go up to high G#, probably that's why Jerry Byrd went to C6 with the 3rd on top, still E.
I used what later became the standard C6 pulls, only on E6. Pedals 5-6-7, and a E7-9 pedals. I used P7, the Maj7th pedal a lot for jazz and moving tones..al.

:)

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 21 Nov 2007 1:33 pm

Didn't know Fender was reissuing the Volume/Tone pedal. I have an original which doesn't really do the trick. It tends to make the guitar always muddy sounding and kills the Gain. Maybe, I need to give it a tune up.

Bill - you might want to look inside that pedal. If the string is not good and taught, the pots might slip and not return to full on, when you pedal down. This causes loss of gain in the volume pot or loss of high end with the tone pot.

Take the bottom access plate off. With the pedal fully down, reach up inside and make sure the pot is rotated fully clockwise. If it is not, you can rotate it manually to the full on position. Then you need to tighten up the string so it doesn't slip.

Likewise with the tone pot. Make sure it goes to full on when you have the pedal rotated fully to the right. When you are not using the tone function, make sure you leave the pedal rotated fully right, so you get all your highs. I've tested my steel going through the pedal against going straight to the amp and the difference, if there is any, is imperceptible. You just have to keep your pedal adjusted properly. Good luck.

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 23 Nov 2007 12:35 pm

Tim,
You hit the nail on the head.. On the Fender Pedal! I had never looked inside it. Bought it on Ebay a few years ago, tried it once found that it wasn't working right so abandoned it as I was gigging a good bit and didn't have time to deal with it. It never dawned on me to open it up duh

. When I did, sure enough someone had replaced the volume string with some incorrect string that was to loose and slipping. I replaced the line and tightened it up and now she is working like new! The Boowha effect is still to long a stroke to get the effect I'm hearing on the records, in some cases but its a good start, now I think if I swap out the pot for something higher value like a 500k or 1 meg it may be workable. I think I also might try putting a door bell switch on it somewhere so I could get the Speedy West effect too.

Thanks
Bill

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Boo Wha Mod for Pedal steel?

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