What is a good crossover tuning for both lap and pedal steel

Derek Byron · Post by **Derek Byron** » 12 Nov 2007 7:55 am

I just posted this in the lap steel section as well:

I own both and dabble, but am primarily a guitar player. I'd like to devote some more time to get somewhat proficient at both lap and pedal. Is there a tuning that I could use for both a 6 string lap and an 8 string pedal? I don't think I have the time and mental capacity to work out two different tunings for these instruments at this point in my life!

I was thinking E9. I'm not not strict blues, country or swing, so tuning won't play a major role in the sound. I just need a good all around tuning that will crossover well between the instruments.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Nov 2007 9:29 am

Derek, you are asking a potentially very difficult question. 6th tunings are the most popular and useful for lap steel, for a very simple reason. Embedded in a 6th tuning are both the major tonic of the tuning and the relative minor. So you can get multiple string harmony for major, minor and 6th chords. But the E9 tuning is most popular for pedal steel country music. But this tuning does not include a minor chord (you get minors with pedals and levers), and so is not so good for lap steel. If you put something besides E9 on pedal steel, you will eliminate all the E9 tab and instruction material out there, and you will only be able to play your own pedal steel, and no one else will be able to play yours.

The C6 tuning is great for lap steel, and is what is used on pedal steel for most western swing and jazz. It was also widely used (or some other 6th tuning, commonly A6) in country music before pedal steel took over in the mid-'50s. It is possible to get some of the Nashville E9 pedal steel sound on pedal C6, but it is not so easy, and you miss out on all the E9 tab and instruction material. Also, on E9 pedal steel, with the pedals down it is an A6 tuning, and with the E-lower lever it is a B6 tuning. So you can get swing and jazz stuff on E9 pedal steel. But if you put an E9 tuning on lap steel, it is not anywhere near as useful as a 6th tuning.

One thing that might work would be an E6 tuning on both lap and pedal steel. The frets would be the same on both, and would be familiar to you as a guitar player (like moving a barred F chord up and down the neck). The string order would be slightly different than standard E9 pedal steel, but you could have all the main pedal and lever changes and get the main E9 pedal steel sound. Al Marcus is an advocate of a universal E6 tuning. It might be just the thing for you.

Marty Smith · Post by **Marty Smith** » 12 Nov 2007 5:23 pm

C6th
You can do nearly anything on it.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Nov 2007 8:01 pm

C6th. The 6 string lap tuning is the essence of the 8 string pedal tuning. A lot of C6th pedal players stay off the pedals when they're doing the hot riffs anyway.

I have a single 8 pedal steel and I tune it to C6th.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Nov 2007 8:41 pm

If you can get anything you need on C6, why do probably 99% of pedal steelers have an E9 neck? While about half of them have a D10 that also has a C6 neck, many (most?) of those hardly ever touch the C6 neck - it's jokingly called an arm rest. And for those who have only one neck, for probably more than 95% of them it is an E9 neck. In contrast, very, very few pedal steelers have only a single C6 neck with no E9.

I don't mean to belittle C6, but practically the whole pedal steel world revolves around E9, especially in country and country-rock; and unfortunately, E9 is not a good lap steel tuning without a 6th. Pedals and levers freed up E9 to not need an open string tuned to the 6th; but unfortunately, E9 does not translate backward to a good lap steel tuning.

Now, having said all that, if instead of the classic Nashville pedal steel E9 sound, you intend to play Hawaiian, or '40s and early '50s pre-pedal steel country, or western swing, or modern jazz, then a C6 (or A6, or E6), would be the tuning you'd want on both lap steel and pedal steel. But then you almost don't need a pedal steel (like b0b says). You'd be better off just playing a lap steel for a few years, and only going to pedal steel if you wanted to expand into modern C6 pedal steel western swing and modern jazz. The real reason most players moved from 6th tuned lap steels to pedal steel was to get the E9 pedal steel sound.

So because of all that, the vast majority of people who play both pedal and lap steel probably play a 6th tuned lap steel and E9 pedal steel, maybe with C6 as a second neck on their pedal steel, maybe not. There are very strong reasons for that, and reasons why very few people do exactly what Derek is asking about, which is to have the same tuning on lap and pedal steel. That's not necessarily the great simplifying idea one might think it would be. And that is probably why not a lot of people go on stage and play both lap and pedal steel. Sure many (most?) steelers dabble with both lap and pedal steel. But very few drag both up on stage and play them both at the same gig. Most people pick one as their main gigging instrument, and just dabble with the other.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 12 Nov 2007 10:46 pm

I have been playing an 8 string C6 lap steel for blues gigs these days. Its a great tuning with plenty of musical options.

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 12 Nov 2007 11:03 pm

Just my two cents worth...

The A6 tuning Lo to Hi C# E F# A C# E gives you everything that the C6 can but with the additional benefit of having almost the exact notes as the E9 with your A & B pedals down!

I find it very easy to adapt from one to the other...
Dom

Jacek Jakubek · Post by **Jacek Jakubek** » 13 Nov 2007 12:32 am

I sometimes fiddle with the dobro tuning on my 6 string lap steel. Low to high GBDGBD.

The dobro tuning has many similarities to E9th. All the same note intervals are there (root, maj3, 5), except the 8-string E9th has 2 added notes (D and F#) and you'd have to move up 3 frets if you'd want to play in the same key as your 6 string.

On the 6 string dobro tuning, you could even simulate
some 2-note E9th pedals moves (like pedals A,B, and E lower) by using bar slants.

These 2 tunings are also commonly used so you could take advantage of all the instructional material out there.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 13 Nov 2007 1:21 am

I run pedals e/9 and c6th, and have a lap steel reso simulator I run tuned open G (gbdgbd) like a dobro. To me, E9= crying country and honkytonk. C6th = swing/jazz/oldschool country. open G = bluegrass/acoustic country sounding with lots of hammeron pulloff things to do...
And open D sounds more bluesy. Just my paradigms with the tunings

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 13 Nov 2007 5:16 am

I always tuned my 8 string lap to this:
D
E
C
A
G
E
C
A/G

I like to tune that low A to a G so I could play rhythm things with it. If I could not have a pedal steel to play, this would be my tuning. I have only one non pedal steel at this point, its an old Electra harp with the legs & pedals missing, but its got a great pickup & fun to play!!

Ernie Pollock

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

Derek Byron · Post by **Derek Byron** » 13 Nov 2007 7:40 am

It's sounding like I should stick with E9 for the pedal steel. That's the tuning I have been hacking away on anyways...so I am already familiar with it. I got into the pedal steel specifically for that lonesome, crying sound. Maybe for lap I'll use standard guitar tuning (which would be the easiest translation for me) or an open tuning of some sort.

Stan Banister · Post by **Stan Banister** » 13 Nov 2007 8:36 am

Hey Derek try E7 BDEG#BE on your lap steel thats six of your E9 pedal strings, your cords would be what you are use to. No minors, just don't play that 3rd when you play a minor. Set up with those strings you can tune to G6 BDEGBD

Dave Stagner · Post by **Dave Stagner** » 13 Nov 2007 9:31 am

In my VERY limited experience on pedal, it seems to me that pedal steel and lap steel are basically different beasts, almost as different from each other as they are from regular guitar/slide guitar. So learn the tunings that work best for each instrument.

If you don't already have a lot of lap steel, I'd really suggest C6 (CEGACE) if you're doing anything country-ish at all (for pure rock/blues, use an open E or open G). C6 gives you that whole Don Helms/Jerry Byrd old-skool thing, which is very useful in a lot of contexts.

C6 is almost as ingenius as standard guitar tuning... with the bar in "root" position, you get all three inversions of a major triad, all three inversions of its relative minor, and an implied IV chord (III-V), plus second, fourth, fifth, and sixth intervals - the only thing missing is sevenths. And there are three different combinations of sixths, which are very rich-sounding and useful intervals. You can play fat harmonized scales up and down the neck with only minimal slants on all three of the top strings! It's a beautiful sound and very logical to boot.

I'm still new to E9 pedal, but it's making sense to me in an entirely different way... it uses the pedals to get even more voicings than C6 with slants, plus you get that classic country sound of I-IV and V-I changes by bending notes with the pedals. So in a way, the two tunings are complementary in their goals, but one exploits the pedals, and the other exploits slants.

This is a roundabout way of saying I think you'd be better off sticking to E9 for pedal and C6 for lap, unless you know your music well enough to do otherwise. The long-term benefit of using optimal tunings for each instrument is better than the short-term benefit of learning both in the same tuning.

Dave Stagner · Post by **Dave Stagner** » 13 Nov 2007 9:34 am

Stan Banister wrote:Hey Derek try E7 BDEG#BE on your lap steel thats six of your E9 pedal strings, your cords would be what you are use to. No minors, just don't play that 3rd when you play a minor. Set up with those strings you can tune to G6 BDEGBD

I'll have to try that E7! I've recently moved myself from C6 to that G6 in order to get the fifth on top, but there are times I'd really like to have an open-chord tuning and a seventh.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 13 Nov 2007 9:44 am

Derek Byron wrote:It's sounding like I should stick with E9 for the pedal steel. That's the tuning I have been hacking away on anyways...so I am already familiar with it. I got into the pedal steel specifically for that lonesome, crying sound. Maybe for lap I'll use standard guitar tuning (which would be the easiest translation for me) or an open tuning of some sort.

If you've settled on E9th for the pedal steel, then E7 for the lap is the logical choice: B D E G# B E. This will keep you at the same fret positions on both instruments.

David Doggett wrote:... if instead of the classic Nashville pedal steel E9 sound, you intend to play Hawaiian, or '40s and early '50s pre-pedal steel country, or western swing, or modern jazz, then a C6 (or A6, or E6), would be the tuning you'd want on both lap steel and pedal steel.

The only thing that you can't do easily on an 8-string C6th is the E9th A+B pedal licks, which don't apply to lap steel in any case. The C6th is not limited to jazz, Hawaiian, etc.. - I use C6th for blues, folk and jam music. The pentatonic scales are easy to find on C6th, and the knowledge translates well between pedal and non-pedal instruments.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Nov 2007 10:37 am

b0b wrote: The C6th is not limited to jazz, Hawaiian, etc.. - I use C6th for blues, folk and jam music.

b0b, I didn’t mean to limit C6 to anything. Add your genres to mine and we are saying the same thing.

b0b wrote: The only thing that you can't do easily on an 8-string C6th is the E9th A+B pedal licks

Again, we’re saying the same thing, and that seems to be what Derek wants to play on pedal steel.

Derek Byron wrote:It's sounding like I should stick with E9 for the pedal steel. That's the tuning I have been hacking away on anyways...so I am already familiar with it. I got into the pedal steel specifically for that lonesome, crying sound.

Derek, you’ve answered your own question as far as pedal steel goes.

I would not put a standard guitar tuning on a lap steel. It has always worked better for most people with open tunings. And that’s true even for guitar players – and most steelers started as guitar players.

What everyone says about the advantages of C6 on lap steel are true. But, you can get all those advantages with an E6 tuning while using the same fret knowledge you have on guitar and will have from E9 pedal steel. Even though I am an old E open slide guitar player, on lap steel I did not find E7 very useful, except maybe for blues and blues rock. 6th tunings have really been found to be ideal for lap steel, and E6 would keep your familiar frets. A6 would also be an interesting choice. It would give you the same strings and frets you get with the A and B pedals down on E9 pedal steel (which next to the open position is the most used position on E9 pedal steel).

Sounds like you should go with E9 pedal steel, and try E6, E7, A6, and C6 on lap steel and see what you like best. Unlike pedal steel, it is very easy to switch around and try different tunings on lap steel. Don’t worry about having the right string gauges until you decide on which tuning you will stick with.

Phillip Telford · Post by **Phillip Telford** » 13 Nov 2007 10:55 am

Don't forget to try an E13th if you play an 8 string non-pedal.

Rick Winfield · Post by **Rick Winfield** » 13 Nov 2007 11:19 am

I too am a guitar player. On my D8 lap I use a C6/F bass,
Low to high F A C E G A C E
I also use an E 9th tuning without the chromatics( -F#,-D#), of the PSG.
B D E F# G# B # E G# (low to high) this gives you on strings 8,6,4,3,2, five of the same notes as a guitar in open E tuning. (minus the low E)
For me it was an easy place to start. Same familiar fret positions for chords and licks. Same bottleneck slants for blues.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 13 Nov 2007 2:01 pm

I use the tuning Stan mentioned on my Dobro(s) which is B D E G B D (low to high) and have Keith/Scruggs tuners on the 1st and 3rd strings so I can raise the first to E and the 3rd to G# for the E7th tuning. However at the moment on my lapsteel I'm using a good old E major tuning. Just like strumming an open E chord on a standard guitar. That's what Duane Alman and Dickey Betts used for slide and it works great for almost any type of music. I don't think you have to really have any 6th, 9th, dominant 7th notes in a tuning though. Look at what Jerry Douglas or Rob Ickes do with an open G tuning. I've heard JD play right along with jazz players and held his own. Also that open E tuning gives you some great power chording in rock or blues music.....JH in Va.

Derek Byron · Post by **Derek Byron** » 13 Nov 2007 2:15 pm

Any suggestions for where I can find E6 chord charts? Just the basic movable major and minor formations.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Nov 2007 2:33 pm

Just get a C6 chord chart and transpose all the chords up two whole steps.

Gary C. Dygert · Post by **Gary C. Dygert** » 14 Nov 2007 12:50 pm

Instead of the E7, I tune the D string to C# for an E6. I like the 6 on the lower register instead of between the top B & E. For me, this version of E6 is useful for nonpedal traditional-style country, and notes fall into place without much effort, so I can concentrate on tone & other musical qualities. I like the 1 (E) on top, rather than the 3 (E) in the C6. Just my personal preference. Chacun a son gout.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 14 Nov 2007 1:27 pm

Derick you dont really need a chart for that. The e6th tuning contains these notes
E G# B C# E G#

E G# B is e major so if tuned the way I wrote it, play strings 1 2 3 5 6, Skipping string 4 which is the 6th scale tone in e maj.

Strum all the strings for a swing sounding E6th chord,

Play all but string 3 for a C# minor chord, which handily enough is the relative minor of E major!

skipping the C# string gives your major chords.

Open =Emaj
fret 1 =Fmaj
fret 2 = F# maj
Fret 3 = G maj

so the bar skipping the 6th tone string= your major chord shape on the guitar, same frets and all.

Skipping the B gives you the minors
open = C#m
fret1=Dm
fret2=D#m
fret3=Em

Cant get easier than that, no finger stacking puzzles like on a guitar, you can focus on tone and technique. I am pretty sure most Hank Williams tunes where in e6th or e13th, so that will be a sound option with this tuning.

Slanting the bar gives you more chords and serious anxiety issues
The pedals are for fancy pants who cant slant the bar (KIDDING) jeez...
pedals = more chord variety and counterpoint effects

8 string tunings can add more chord varities, 7ths 9ths octives and what not, but the 6 sting can get you nailing shingles to the roof in no time.

Greg Gefell · Post by **Greg Gefell** » 25 Jun 2008 12:05 pm

It was stated earlier that there are no minors on the E9 neck with out pedals. That's not true. Strings 9 7 and 5 give you a minor V. Also strings 6,5 and 2 give a minor 3.

I'm not saying they are especially useful to the average pedal pusher but they do exist.

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