Pedal steel lubrication

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 30 Aug 2007 9:40 am

"...And he used motor oil on your sax? There are applications were oil can be too thick for the application and actually cause sticking or slow response. I would think that motor oil would be too thick to use as instrument key oil(?)"

Mark, yes, I believe he did. He kept an open can of it on his bench and dipped an applicator into it for his work. I don't know if he used other lubricants in addition to the oil, but when I asked him what I should use to lubricate the pivot points, etc., he said "motor oil" and he showed me the can. I asked if 3,000 mile intervals was good enough for lubing. This guy does a lot of pro's horns in LA, so I assume he knows what he's doing, but I never tried it because I have a bunch of the key oil bottles. I think I'll go to the bike shop and get some tri-flow.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 30 Aug 2007 10:21 am

About the TriFlow....I use the bottled form instead of the aerosol. As was said earlier, the over-spray is hard to control. But, whether you use the spray, or the bottle, be VERY sure to frequently shake the container to mix the contents. The teflon, I've found, settles quickly. So, if you don't shake it up, all you are getting is the fluid carrier with little teflon. You can't really see the difference, but the end result will tell the tale...the mechanism won't feel like it's been well lubed.

And, BTW, the lubricant isn't the fluid itself, it's what the fluid, once it evaporates, leaves behind...the teflon particles.

I love the stuff and use it on practically all my personal, and professional, mechanical devices in place of oil.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Aug 2007 7:56 pm

Triflow is at Bike shops and a lot of small hardware stores.

Silicone sprays are almost as bad as WD40 - never, ever use them. The'yre an oil and attract dirt; they break down just like other oils; and they have the added feature of repelling every type of finish you can think of, so if you get a tiny bit on a lacquer or painted guitar and need to do touchup later, you can learn the fine art of furniture stripping. Get a little bit beteen the wood and formica and need to reglue later? Good luck.

I have a similar opinion of silicone caulking - in the hands of a pro, it's great stuff - in the hands of an amateur, it creates expensive rehab work for professionals.[/quote]

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 31 Aug 2007 11:58 pm

I use the oil that CARTER sells to service guitars with. Also sometimes I'll use Dextron transmission fluid.

Justin Griffith · Post by **Justin Griffith** » 1 Sep 2007 9:47 pm

I choose to use nothing.
I have had to clean too many changers from over lubricating. Some people might as well put a grease fitting on the changer.

If I HAD to use something it would be ATF as mentioned above, but not in the changer.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Sep 2007 7:54 am

I choose to use nothing.
I have had to clean too many changers from over lubricating.

Exactly why I went to dry Teflon. Metal-on-metal is a bad idea (except with special bearings made that way), as friction causes early. Some guitars simply hang at spots without lubrication no matter how well you smooth out th surfaces. Over lubrication is a bad thing, and very common; NO lubrication is, to me, just as counter-productive, if not worse.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 2 Sep 2007 9:35 am

TRIFLOW. TRIFLOW TRIFLOW. I recently worked my Millennium over and used this NON GREASE stuff and you'll be amazed at the smoother action. thanks Sliff

phred

Jim Manley · Post by **Jim Manley** » 2 Oct 2007 3:51 pm

I was looking at a Jeff Newman video recently which covered maintenance and lubrication and he recommended using plain 30wt motor oil.He also recommends removing the old oil and dirt with lighter fluid.

Bill A. Moore · Post by **Bill A. Moore** » 2 Oct 2007 4:25 pm

I have faithfully read these forums to gain all the knowledge I can, and once again I find out that everyone has an opinion. I just ordered a knee lever bracket from Marrs guitars, and asked them about lubing this old Sho-Bud. This is their recommendations, "use light weight clear sewing machine oil or 3 in 1 on shafts etc. Use a silicone spray in the changer unit, not WD 40. You cannot over lubricate. Also, in between the rollers on the keyhead oil in between them too. This will allow lowers to return properly and eliminate a rattle or chatter noise. The oil fills the void." I'm sure they mean the silicone spray that is recommended for treadmills, as it has no oil. I use it to lube my magazines when I shoot with my club, and when dropped in the dirt, they don't get dirty.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 29 Oct 2007 8:30 am

Years ago, Jack Strayhorn (when he was with Emmons) recommended "Liquid Wrench Super Lube", which is a teflon spray lubricant. I'm still on my first can and I hit the changer once or twice a year with it. Other places I use light machine oil.

Phil Halton · Post by **Phil Halton** » 30 Oct 2007 1:47 pm

I hunted down and bagged my first squeak on my new Carter today with TriFlo Teflon lube. Man! They're hard to find sometimes! It was hiding in the linkage for the B pedal split where the pullrod connects to the serrated bar mounted to the cross shaft (bellcrank?).

I had to use the Braille method, but it worked out fine--nothing like jumping in and getting your hands dirty.

Now, if I could just get my neighbor to stop trying to help me cross the street.

BTW: I got the Carter S10 two weeks ago, and this squeak makes me wonder just how long its been sitting on their factory floor--never asked the date of manufacture.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 30 Oct 2007 2:33 pm

Back in the Eighties Billy Cooper told me to use Super Oil by Liquid Wrench. I don't even know if they still make it. I've had the can I'm using for many years--a little goes a long way. I haven't felt I have had any issues with gumminess. But who knows? Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 30 Oct 2007 9:38 pm

Well, the last time I cleaned and relubed the axles and fingers, was probably 15 years ago. I mixed up a batch of Vasoline Petroleum Jelly with Singer Sewing Machine oil, until the consistency was something that wouldn't run or drip, but was also, fairly thin.

I applied it pretty liberally to the axles and smeared it around the inside of the fingers, as well as on the spacers (for bearing surfaces) between the fingers. I Wiped off the access after sliding the axels back in and I've never had any problems.

I stored the unused portion in a 35mm plastic film canister, and just now opened it, and it's exactly the same as it was when I mixed it. So now, it's going to be used again. The fingers nor the axles show any signs of wear when I tore her completely down for a good cleaning and relube.

I've been trying to find out what others were using, and after reading this thread, it seems there are lots of differences on what to use or what not to use. But definitely, there needs (in my opinion) to be some form of lubricant on any two pieces that work as hard as a changer has to during a night's work.

Bet ya couldn't count how many times in a night that fingers change positions on that shaft.

Thinking in terms of exactly how much stress is placed on the bearing surface of the shafts, when there are 20 strings tuned up to pitch, pulling the fingers against the axles. I'd say they deserve something that will provide a good solid lube, without causing them to become sluggish.

But again, the above is simply only one more of the many different opinions.

PS: It would be interesting to know what the many different manufacturers use on their newly built steels. Maybe it's a trade secret.

Hiro Keitora · Post by **Hiro Keitora** » 31 Oct 2007 6:09 pm

Folks, I stopped by a bike shop, and they did have "Tri-Flow". It's in a little black bottle with Orange letters, made by the Sherwin-Williams Company.

Is this the one you're talking about??

It says "Formulated with PTFE", and I remember, a thing called "Slick 50" to help motor oil to further reduce the friction.

<H>

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 3 Nov 2007 7:49 pm

That's the stuff. PTFE is the abbreviation for polytetrafluoroethylene - and the trademarked name for Dupont's forumulation of PTFE is "Teflon". Also closely related to a coating used on metal surfaces known as PVDF, or "Kynar" (polyvinylidene formula trademarked by Pennwalt). Very slick stuff used a lot in the 80's in architecture, to the chagrin of many in the paint industry who have now found out recoating it is next to impossible...and those 80's colors (Harvest Gold, anyone? Avocado?) are really swell.

Chemistry/feng shui class is now adjourned. Please don't spill your latte on the periodic table.

Michael Hardee · Post by **Michael Hardee** » 3 Nov 2007 8:00 pm

I've used nothing but 'REM oil' (Remington gun oil), has Teflon additive, since Roy Thomas recommended it to me many years ago.

Rick Jolley · Post by **Rick Jolley** » 4 Nov 2007 6:50 am

This is a great thread!! (worth the price of admission <grin>)

I'm about to take my Dekley out of the case where it's been for six months, and I realized I haven't lubed it in years. So I went to my bike shop, and ask for teflon lube. He said he doesn't use it, raved about
Boeshield T-9 bicycle lubricant and sold me a 4oz bottle for 8 bux. Developed by Boeing (yes, the airplane guys) it is VERY NICE. Bottle has a tiny spout (like an oiler) seems to clean chrome, lube things and then <gasp> disappear, which is what you want. No gummy residue.

I said "this is a lifetime supply"
He said "Nope. I use it for everything and I'll bet you will too."

Showed me bicycle chains & changers, clean as a whistle. Says it's good for locks, too.

Rick Jolley

Hiro Keitora · Post by **Hiro Keitora** » 4 Nov 2007 9:06 am

Jim, really? these were used in archiectural application in 80's?

Anyway, As an experimentation, I had a few drops of Tri-Flo on a piece of clear Plexi Glass and left it by window sill.

After a day or so, most of the "liquid" evaporated, and left thicker, oily clear stuff behind.

Another few days passed, and the clear stuff is still there, and not getting thicker anymore, but surprisingly, it's not getting "sticky".

And of course, some dust landed on it, but it's not attracting any "hair" or dust like most goo does.

I will use this on my Zum Hybrid.

<H>

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 Nov 2007 10:05 am

On metal parts the carrier evaporates - what you are likely getting is a plasticizer migration from the plexiglass due to the solvent in the Tri Flow. The "oil" is from the plexiglass. I've had the same thing with most solvenated materials on plexiglass and plastics - they'll suck the plasticizers right out. When we make "free film" (i.e. coating-only) samples, the application is on glass or, in some cases, chromed steel. Never on plastics or plexiglass, though, just for that reason.

Yes, Teflon-like coatings have been used in architectural applications for years, but have kind of fallen out of favor for the reasons I mentioned - great stuff if you are sure you want the item permanently coated in the Kynar color, but not so great if you do anything "trendy" with it. There is a set of buildings near the Orange County Airport with huge red panels on them - they look really out-of-date (another typical color you still see a lot of...because it's permanent - is teal green), and I've been asked (during times spent working for different companies) to write specs for repainting them at least a half-dozen times over 20 years. Every test anyone's done has peeled like a snake...

Hiro Keitora · Post by **Hiro Keitora** » 4 Nov 2007 11:57 am

Ah, plastisizer migrating out...
So it's probably not that good idea to use on, say plastic nut on regular guitar neck. Or on any two different materials rubs together. That's probably why it's good for metal-on-metal, like bike chain.

Is there any problem of applying PTFE over previously oiled pedal steel changers? I assume the solvent in Tri-Flow will somewhat wash off the film of the oil, but will PTFE replace and stays where oil once was?

I guess multiple application will eventually do, right? ( good time to clean up some goo at changer)

<H>

John Jeffries · Post by **John Jeffries** » 5 Nov 2007 12:06 pm

Radio Shack sells a "needle-tip one-drop precision applicator" which contains a "general household lubricant" with P.T.F.E. (1/4 oz.). They claim this product has superior adhesion, is non-toxic, non-corrosive, and will not attract dust or other contaminates. They also claim that it won't wash off, disperse, break down or decompose. The suggested applications are numberous, and include electric motors, guns, fishing reels, bicycle cables,rubber gaskets, electronic equipment........the list goes on.
Does anyone have any experience with this product, or can anyone recommend it for pedal steel? Any feedback will be grearly appreciated!
Thanks!

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 5 Nov 2007 1:44 pm

I just ordered a tube of triflow from Grainger for $6.90 with my company discount. I live in a small town and couldn't find it anywhere locally, even at my Honda motorcycle dealer.

TriFlow at Grainger

Greg

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 6 Nov 2007 3:11 pm

I paid $2.99 for the small bottle at the local True Value. 2 oz and a little straw to spot lube.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 6 Nov 2007 4:07 pm

Rick I work as a bike courier here in seattle, In the summer the Boesheild T9 is preferred since it collects the least dirt. In the winter, when road conditions are worse due to constant rain, we switch to finish-line heavy duty. T-9is mostly solvent so you have to use 2 times as much as triflow. Whats left is pretty much wax after the solvent dries. I used it on my carter when I had it. The triflow on the other hand, after much use, penetrates the metal and adds more protection. In other words, the t9 is least protection but cleanest. Does leave a residue, but it flaks off after time. Triflow seams to treat the metal. Dont know if thats good or bad.

Hiro Keitora · Post by **Hiro Keitora** » 6 Nov 2007 6:11 pm

I was curious, so I research what is the primary market for Boeshield t-9, and many woodworking stores carry them as "Blade cleaner" for table saw.

T-9 doesn't have any Teflon in it, so it's safe for the cut wood with t-9 cleaned blade to recieve finishing. There's some parrffin oil in it, so that's what's left on the surface after all the solvents are gone.

<H>

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