Chords you'd like to BAN. /Those you LIKE.

Joel Paterson · Post by **Joel Paterson** » 22 Oct 2007 9:28 am

I hope that no one with a genuine interest in getter better at chord theory is reading this thread.

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 22 Oct 2007 10:04 am

They should ban the chord that goes from the guitar to the amp with one or two guitarists I know !!!!!

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 22 Oct 2007 10:14 am

I agree with Mike & others about adding jazz chords to Hank Sr. songs. But I have to admit I like Norah Jones' version of Cold Cold Heart.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 22 Oct 2007 11:00 am

I just quit playing in one of my bands this month due to a guitar player I couldnt get on with. The final straw tho was the singer going all Janis Joplin on Cheatin Heart. It felt like someone dumped a bucket of cold water on me. Some songs are fine the way they are written. I am gonna check out the Nora Jones cover tho...She can get away with it

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 22 Oct 2007 2:10 pm

Mike Perlowin wrote:
There's a time and place for everything, but throwing in jazz chords where they don't belong (in any kind of music, not just country) is just plain wrong.

Please define "jazz chord."Is a 9th chord in a subdominant spot a "jazz chord?" If so, I don't care for it. But a flat5/half-diminished works, doesn't it?
So what are some "jazz chords?" "Country chords?" what about---"Classical chords?"

Joel Paterson · Post by **Joel Paterson** » 22 Oct 2007 3:38 pm

This thread makes me crazy. Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day used 7th chords as passing chords all over the Ray Price records in three chord country songs. Check out the diminished slant in "Wild Side of Life" on Night Life. They use half pedal bends to play a 7th chord with a sharp 5, they use minor 7ths as a substitute for dominants, they will play a sharp 4 on a IV chord, they use tri-tone subs as passing chords in "simple" country songs. They play the dominant II chord with a 13th and 9th, sometimes a flat 9. It's endless. If you are sick of chords you should take up the triangle.

Larry Lorows · Post by **Larry Lorows** » 22 Oct 2007 4:20 pm

Joel, You are soooo right. I couldn't agree with you more.

I played in Honky Tonk Angels a couple of years in a row and it had all the chords we're talking about and man it was pretty music. I often thought if a band could play like that all the time, they would be the best, most liked band in the state. Theater music is beautiful, and not easy at all to play.

Larry

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 22 Oct 2007 5:40 pm

I think the 7ths are good at passing and building tension, but when they are not resolved it makes the song seem agitated. I think for steel its good due to the flux of the instrument, but on guitar sound tense and graiting when over used. Right tool for the job you know..

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Oct 2007 6:32 pm

.....(burp)....

Well I guess that clears that up..

Thanks all.

EJL

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 22 Oct 2007 7:52 pm

lmao,,

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 22 Oct 2007 8:08 pm

Joel Paterson wrote:This thread makes me crazy. Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day used 7th chords as passing chords all over the Ray Price records in three chord country songs. Check out the diminished slant in "Wild Side of Life" on Night Life. They use half pedal bends to play a 7th chord with a sharp 5, they use minor 7ths as a substitute for dominants, they will play a sharp 4 on a IV chord, they use tri-tone subs as passing chords in "simple" country songs. They play the dominant II chord with a 13th and 9th, sometimes a flat 9. It's endless. If you are sick of chords you should take up the triangle.

...you said it ! Amen !

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 22 Oct 2007 8:16 pm

Those major / sus 9ths can be just beautiful and make up for all kinds of terrible musical failings as demonstrated by Jurgen Groiner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51bsCRv6kI0.

As for m7 b5's: I'll defend them to the death and if you can't find them it's because you're playing on the wrong neck: C6 is crawling with them: pedal 5 strings 9-2; pedal 6 strings 8-3 & 1; pedal 2 + rkr (lower 3rd string a semitone) strings 6-1; pedal 1 + rkr: strings 6-4, 3-1. Of course I never get to use them, mostly. But what a chord: you got your ii; you got your V9, invert 'em & you got your i add 6, shades of pre-corrected Monk (for those of you that checked out the link). You can even get away with them straight up as a melodic framework in the right hard rock context if there's a pentatonic riff with a b5 in it (in which case, I have to admit, I'm probably on guitar & not steel). Ah, to be a teenager in love, and learning the the minor 7 flat 5
again ...

With respect to Mike Perlowin's comment on "Honky Tonk Woman", if you play the riff to "Jumping Jack Flash" using a major 7th, it sounds like Wilco, especially if you do it in parallel 4ths.

Finally: Nothing says "Spy movie" like a good old minor maj 7. (Even better if you can throw in a 9th but I can't figure out how with my old Sho Bud pro unless I break up the chord & move the bar.)

Chords -- don't get me started.

Sorry, Eric.

Oh - and does anyone remember the ad for some flat-top acoustic that ran in late 1970s Guitar Players showing a slightly out of focus young blonde lady strumming with her thumb, with the catch line: "Love at the first major 7th"?

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Oct 2007 8:22 pm

This thread makes me crazy. Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day used 7th chords as passing chords all over the Ray Price records in three chord country songs...

Well it's just my opinion but it's made some people instantly illiterate, and some just plain stupid.

Then there's the whining....

I think if I remember right in my original post I didn't mention anything about "passing notes" or "passing chords". Let alone what "Jimmy Day" or "Buddy Emmons" played...

I'll be a little more direct and say that if you can't read a post, you look a little silly throwing little buckets of whatever it is on something you never read to begin with.

There seem to be a number of people answering this post that understand that I meant that it's hard to play anything that matches a "sus4" as an opening, main, predominant chord. It's also hard to play anything that matches a 6addDom7.

Hey. If you don't know the difference between harmony and dissonance, you're in some pretty classy company.

King Sunny Ade and his troupe have done pretty well with it.

Well, notable anyhow.

So Tee Up.....

EJL/HFLE

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 22 Oct 2007 8:27 pm

If you are sick of chords you should take up the triangle.

I didn't hear anybody say they are sick of chords. In spite of the slightly bombastic thread title, the conversation has mainly been about chord usage.

But I'll bet lots of us have either worked with people who practiced, practiced ourselves, or listened to people practicing "chord abuse". By this I mean inserting "interesting" chords for the sake of inserting "interesting" chords, whether or not they fit. I think jazz chords take the worst rap on this because the alterations can clash pretty badly if not handled correctly. If it sounds good, it is good, regardless of whether it's simple or complex. And the inverse also.

To me - I'd much rather hear someone stick to meat and potatoes than handle complex chords poorly. Of course, this is all to taste. But I think I'll stick to the guitar and steel, thank you.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Oct 2007 8:35 pm

Not at all Jim.

It's usually an intelligent discussion for those that choose to discuss it.

My original point as I again reviewed it is that it's difficult for a steel player to play anything but a sus4 against a string sus4 "guitar chord" or "keyboard chord" played strongly in a primary place of a song.

Similarly, the old E7 add C# is a great rock staple unless it is strongly played as a primary chord.

There ARE notes, and chords that make it easier for a secondary instrument to add embellishment.

I like the Ninth Note myself.

Others are certainly welcome to suggest thers, but I'm certainly not going to send any Musical Mujahadeen in with Stinger™ Missles in on those not knowing theirs..

I guess I should have figured that my "tounge in cheek" "Title" suggesting a "BAN" was enough to wad up a few pairs of panties.

Wouldn't want 'Victor's Secret' to run out of stock...

I'll try to be a little more considerate in the future..

HHeehehehehehe

EJL

Geoff Barnes · Post by **Geoff Barnes** » 22 Oct 2007 8:50 pm

Nah not down here mate!
Poked my head in, sniffed, thought it smelt vaguely of Troll, grabbed some popcorn and pulled up a chair

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 22 Oct 2007 9:04 pm

I love the m7b5 when used on the VII chord; I don't like it when people use it where a diminished (with a 6th, not a dom7) should be.

You know, aside from whether or not there are bad chords (unless you're talking ones that have tones that obviously beat against each other, and not in a good way) there are definitely renditions of tunes with what I'll call "Let-Down" chords.

For example, you are listening to a good old familiar song and you can't wait to hear that tear-jerking IVm6 coming up... And just as you clear the bar with the IV, they shove a tray with a thawed-out, watery helping of bVIIdom9 on it in front of you.

Or, you are getting ready for the heartwarming I/3 to bIIIdim to IIm7 changes, only to find that someone wise guy swapped out the bIIIdim passing chord with a VIm7.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? You think to yourself, Dang it - I paid good money for this and they can't even give me the right chords! They had to swap them out with some "creative" junk! It almost amounts to the same thing as using cheap plastic parts instead of the real stuff.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 22 Oct 2007 10:18 pm

And what chords do we play behind overly-melismatic vocalists?

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 22 Oct 2007 10:27 pm

Good question. An arranger who has worked with Christina Aguilera ought to have an idea...

Post by **b0b** » 22 Oct 2007 10:31 pm

I like G, and C. But mostly I like E the best. It's my favorite chord.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 23 Oct 2007 12:06 am

But b0b, that E would be a "jazz chord" in the context of G or C

!

Joel Paterson · Post by **Joel Paterson** » 23 Oct 2007 12:13 am

Alright, Eric, I'll take the bait. What exactly is a "6addDom7"?

Bernie Liebe · Post by **Bernie Liebe** » 23 Oct 2007 1:55 am

OH GOOD! Now we're gonna have someone start a "CHORD Police Force" to snuff out individual interpretation of a particular song on the steel guitar. "Great Idea".......NOT ! ! If you banned all those particular chords that YOU don't particularly like, what does that do to all the players of independent thinking and expression? Just think of how much better YOU sound because of other players using chords that don't quite meet your ears approval. What we don't need is MORE CONFORMITY in music so we all sound the same. Heaven knows we don't want to hurt some other players tender feelings about a particular chord WE happen to think doesn't fit. Perhaps you need to write a ... thou shall not list, of chords not to be played by everyone else because YOU don't happen to like the interpretation. Many of the TOP players and singers across the board on occassion, re-make a song or album of another artist and add their own interpretation of the song only to hurt the discriminating ear of a few. C'mon, just let it happen! If you don't particularly agree with another players style or method, JUST DON"T LISTEN TO THEM. After all this is only your opinion, and we all have one of those!! God Bless America!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 23 Oct 2007 4:07 am

Well, Joel, on a Guitar the "6 Add Dom7th" consists of from 6th string to 1st, E B D G# C# E.

Played strongly as a tonic, what chord, arpeggio, or note would one play against it?

Also, and I know it overamps some of the more mentally challenged that have shown up here..

E B E A B E.

E sus4.

Played strongly as a tonic, what note, arpeggio or note would you play against it?

In both cases, I find that F#, or the Ninth seems to be the only acceptable note that doesn't severely clash with the severely clashing chords.

Others' mileage may....

Oh, and Contrary to my happy, friendly little Avatar..

Sometimes I'm the "Other Eric".

I'm off to the mines.

Have at it.

EJL

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 23 Oct 2007 4:08 am

Oh and Bernie.

Not to worry.

People treat the written word that way too.

"It's all good."

EJL

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Chords you'd like to BAN. /Those you LIKE.

"What a 'let-down' chord it was..."