Country music deserves its rightful place. Call it old country or traditional or classic country. I don't care ... but just don't refer to what is being hyped today as being country. It isn't! What happened to it? GREED! Hopefully, I don't need to paraphrase that for anyone. It didn't just happen overnight, but a lot of the heavyweights in country are, at least, partly responsible for it. Remember "Pop Goes The Country" ?? Remember all the artists trying for a crossover hit? Remember the wind being sucked out of Nashville when the artists opened their own places in Branson? Remember all the rides at Opryland?
Do I think there is room in todays market for real country? YES. Is it an easy thing to do? NO But to boil it down to its essence, I think it is more related to being true to the music as opposed to going where the it pays the most.
Hopefully, before summer "In The Country" will head into the studio to record 14 or 15 sides of what people will recognize as traditional country. A risky investment? Only if it's about the money.
My concern is how do we get back in control of the henhouse?
Death To Traditional Country ...... I THINK NOT!
Moderators: Dave Mudgett, Janice Brooks
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Thomas Stanley
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 1 Jun 2007 3:03 pm
- Location: Tennessee, USA
Death To Traditional Country ...... I THINK NOT!
Tom Stanley "In The Country"
Pro I, Super Pro, Session 400, Blues Jr., HD28, D28, Custom Legend, Adamas, Fiddle, Ibanez Bass
Pro I, Super Pro, Session 400, Blues Jr., HD28, D28, Custom Legend, Adamas, Fiddle, Ibanez Bass
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Marlin Smoot
- Posts: 822
- Joined: 19 Sep 2005 12:01 am
- Location: Kansas
Thomas, this issue has actually been discussed in detail - as are most topics on the Forum at one time or another... here is something I posted back in Feb.
As far as getting control of the Henhouse... that could be an interesting task.
Bill wrote:
"Its very frustrating to visit radio stations and have them say, its too country,their has beens,its just not selling ,or my favorite (no one wants to hear that kind of country anymore). But I say, there not hearing it because the radio won't play it,catch 22."
Bill, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not taking sides but perhaps expand the thinking from the radio business side.
When stations say "it's too country" what they mean is; compared with the current mainstream country, the production values of older recorded music do not mix very well with current mainstream country. Think Rascal Flatts played into a Bob Wills cut. (BTW, Rascal Flatts is one of the top 5 selling artist this past year and one of the overall top concert ticket selling artist placing them in the top 5 as well)
Most of the country music (and most all music) was processed for AM band radio stations - not FM. While we all may like George Jones, the hits we remember are not processed like todays recordings. It's even changed since the early 90's.
It's a fact, the older artist or even traditional country (except for Alan Jackson and George Strait who are using todays recording production processing) is not selling. You can look at Soundscan (retail CD sales reports) or Billboards top 100 CD sales and see it isn't selling. There just isn't a large enough demand for it.
"No one wants to hear that kind of country anymore"
...that statement rings true as well because of the research that goes into each market from #1 to the 100th ranked station, research is being done once, maybe even twice a year (and more in large and major markets) and the research is showing people just do not have a longing to hear this music.
Not only is the music being tested but the listeners preferences too. 2 seperate research tests.
Some markets will be different and you'll see some classic country markets doing classic country formats, but for the most part, the research just does not support making classic country a mass appeal format.
Radio is researching the listeners all the time and there are research studies that use classic country as part of the testing because country radio wants to make money and when people want to hear classic country, research will show it and it will get played.
As far as that goes, if country radio research shows people want to hear nails on a chalkboard, you can bet they'd play it if they thought they could get more listeners, to help them get more ratings, to sell more advertising.
So it's not really a catch 22, country radio will research the music before it gets put into the stations playlist.
To understand this concept of doing business and why radio stations play what they do or why they pick a format to compete with, you must understand the inside workings of the radio business, research, sales, marketing, promotion, consultants, corporations etc...
Another reason you won't hear classic country on country stations because for the most part, they are programmed for a 18-49 year old demo, and that demo just does not want to hear classic country, they want the new music from 'their' artist of their generation and record labels want to sell to them because they have the income to spend.
Research shows people over the age of 35 just do not buy music like the 18-25 demo. They have other things their income is earmarked for. the 35+ demo may buy 2 current CD's a year, not nearly enough for a record label to market to.
Of course there are exceptions in small pockets but the research overall shows this to be true.
Why research? Because radio (all formats) are big business today and corporations want to get their shareholders a profit.
When something goes south on a corporation, the shareholders want to know why, and the corporate officers can blame it on the research (which in turn helps save their high paying positions), which by the way (research) is always changing.
It's about business, not music. It should be called "The Business Music" not "The Music Business" because business always comes first and there's no room for "passion" for the music at that level.
I hope this helps you in some way.
As far as getting control of the Henhouse... that could be an interesting task.
Bill wrote:
"Its very frustrating to visit radio stations and have them say, its too country,their has beens,its just not selling ,or my favorite (no one wants to hear that kind of country anymore). But I say, there not hearing it because the radio won't play it,catch 22."
Bill, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not taking sides but perhaps expand the thinking from the radio business side.
When stations say "it's too country" what they mean is; compared with the current mainstream country, the production values of older recorded music do not mix very well with current mainstream country. Think Rascal Flatts played into a Bob Wills cut. (BTW, Rascal Flatts is one of the top 5 selling artist this past year and one of the overall top concert ticket selling artist placing them in the top 5 as well)
Most of the country music (and most all music) was processed for AM band radio stations - not FM. While we all may like George Jones, the hits we remember are not processed like todays recordings. It's even changed since the early 90's.
It's a fact, the older artist or even traditional country (except for Alan Jackson and George Strait who are using todays recording production processing) is not selling. You can look at Soundscan (retail CD sales reports) or Billboards top 100 CD sales and see it isn't selling. There just isn't a large enough demand for it.
"No one wants to hear that kind of country anymore"
...that statement rings true as well because of the research that goes into each market from #1 to the 100th ranked station, research is being done once, maybe even twice a year (and more in large and major markets) and the research is showing people just do not have a longing to hear this music.
Not only is the music being tested but the listeners preferences too. 2 seperate research tests.
Some markets will be different and you'll see some classic country markets doing classic country formats, but for the most part, the research just does not support making classic country a mass appeal format.
Radio is researching the listeners all the time and there are research studies that use classic country as part of the testing because country radio wants to make money and when people want to hear classic country, research will show it and it will get played.
As far as that goes, if country radio research shows people want to hear nails on a chalkboard, you can bet they'd play it if they thought they could get more listeners, to help them get more ratings, to sell more advertising.
So it's not really a catch 22, country radio will research the music before it gets put into the stations playlist.
To understand this concept of doing business and why radio stations play what they do or why they pick a format to compete with, you must understand the inside workings of the radio business, research, sales, marketing, promotion, consultants, corporations etc...
Another reason you won't hear classic country on country stations because for the most part, they are programmed for a 18-49 year old demo, and that demo just does not want to hear classic country, they want the new music from 'their' artist of their generation and record labels want to sell to them because they have the income to spend.
Research shows people over the age of 35 just do not buy music like the 18-25 demo. They have other things their income is earmarked for. the 35+ demo may buy 2 current CD's a year, not nearly enough for a record label to market to.
Of course there are exceptions in small pockets but the research overall shows this to be true.
Why research? Because radio (all formats) are big business today and corporations want to get their shareholders a profit.
When something goes south on a corporation, the shareholders want to know why, and the corporate officers can blame it on the research (which in turn helps save their high paying positions), which by the way (research) is always changing.
It's about business, not music. It should be called "The Business Music" not "The Music Business" because business always comes first and there's no room for "passion" for the music at that level.
I hope this helps you in some way.
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Thomas Stanley
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 1 Jun 2007 3:03 pm
- Location: Tennessee, USA
Marlin, your response is a certainly a reasonable explanation of how/why greed controls the system. Some, but not all of it needs to be taken with a healthy grain of salt. I for one, do not buy that young people won't listen to country. They listen to what they are exposed to. The other side of the coin is priorities. The majority of bands today play what is being heard on the radio. Most song writers write what might make money. Neither the bands nor the writers have a goal of being true to country music.
It is highly unlikely that change will ever occur from the inside ... not while they are making lots of money.
As such, any change would have to begin from the outside. Setlists that are 100% country. Bands with fiddles and pedal steels. Writers that keep the faith.
I am not ashamed to say we don't play any "Southern Rock ... New Country ... Top 40 ..." (choose one), etc. Notice I didn't say we can't play it ... we simply choose not to. Yes, we may turn off someone in the crowd who want's to hear "Freebird" but we keep many more turned on by not playing it. We may miss a few jobs because we aren't willing to play today's "top 40 country" but that is a choice we gladly make. Tom
It is highly unlikely that change will ever occur from the inside ... not while they are making lots of money.
As such, any change would have to begin from the outside. Setlists that are 100% country. Bands with fiddles and pedal steels. Writers that keep the faith.
I am not ashamed to say we don't play any "Southern Rock ... New Country ... Top 40 ..." (choose one), etc. Notice I didn't say we can't play it ... we simply choose not to. Yes, we may turn off someone in the crowd who want's to hear "Freebird" but we keep many more turned on by not playing it. We may miss a few jobs because we aren't willing to play today's "top 40 country" but that is a choice we gladly make. Tom
Tom Stanley "In The Country"
Pro I, Super Pro, Session 400, Blues Jr., HD28, D28, Custom Legend, Adamas, Fiddle, Ibanez Bass
Pro I, Super Pro, Session 400, Blues Jr., HD28, D28, Custom Legend, Adamas, Fiddle, Ibanez Bass
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Charles Davidson
- Posts: 7549
- Joined: 9 Jul 2005 12:01 am
- Location: Phenix City Alabama, USA
Thomas,you are right,More young folks like the old classic music than most think,Read the thread I have right now here on the music[YOUNG FOLKS DON'T LIKE REAL COUNTRY MUSIC]That is NOT true,That is a fact that is not even debatable,There is a LOT of things that I'm completly ignorant about,this is NOT one of them,I have been there personally and witnessed it.These young kids love this old REAL music,but they are not exposed to it by the music industry,on TV or FM radio,They have been brainwashed by the industry to the point that most of them ACTUALLY BELIEVE that acts such as Kenny Chesney,Cowboy Troy,or Big and Rich are country music,It has to be taken to them by acts such as Joey Allcorn[the kid I worked with]Robbie Fulks,Wayne Hancock,Dale Watson[IMO the BEST country,honky tonk singer today].don't you know.
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC !
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Tim Whitlock
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: 3 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Colorado, USA
Marlin's post says it all. Hank and Buck and Johnny all had their day and it will never be that way again, period, so there's no use wasting your hate on the new stuff. The vast majority of young folks like:
1. What all the other young folks like.
2. What gets enough media exposure to capture their fleeting attention.
3. Whatever their elders will dispise.
The beauty of traditional country music is that it's always there for whenever you're mature enough to appreciate the soul and poetry of it. Some of us take longer to get there and, like Charles says, if you look hard enough you find some that get it early on. It's not for mass consumption, and be glad of it! Don't worry about whatever they're selling today ("MacMusic" is what Ray Condo called it). Do what you can to keep it going in your own way, so it will be there for those that are ready to come to it.
[Steps off soapbox]
1. What all the other young folks like.
2. What gets enough media exposure to capture their fleeting attention.
3. Whatever their elders will dispise.
The beauty of traditional country music is that it's always there for whenever you're mature enough to appreciate the soul and poetry of it. Some of us take longer to get there and, like Charles says, if you look hard enough you find some that get it early on. It's not for mass consumption, and be glad of it! Don't worry about whatever they're selling today ("MacMusic" is what Ray Condo called it). Do what you can to keep it going in your own way, so it will be there for those that are ready to come to it.
[Steps off soapbox]
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Thomas Stanley
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 1 Jun 2007 3:03 pm
- Location: Tennessee, USA
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Stephen Gambrell
- Posts: 6870
- Joined: 20 Apr 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Over there
Go to a steel guitar show, and note the average age of the audience. This is the audience for "real country" music. It's true, the kids are listening to Rascal Flatts, Chesney, Toby Keith, etc., cause they're AIN"T NO BLUE COLLAR ROCK AND ROLL NO MORE!!!
What's a kid, just out of high school, working his first real job, gonna listen to? Classic rock (Skynyrd, etc.) or bands/singers that SOUND like classic rock. Big radio is NOT brainwashing these kids---They WANNA hear songs about pickup trucks, girls, drinkin', and acting silly. They DON'T want to hear "Pride," which is unfortunate, but it's true.
And what were these kids' parents listening to, when the kids were coming up? Southern rock, people like Bob Seger, Nugent, good British bands---So when was this generation of young people EXPOSED to "classic country?"
It's now a sub-genre, like blues, or bluegrass, which has a very dedicated, but small, audience. So good that we've got the Derailers, Dale Watson(a lot of his stuff can't be played, anyway, because of the language), and a host of country thoroughbreds, who are willing to play for smaller crowds, and smaller paydays, for the sake of their music.
What's a kid, just out of high school, working his first real job, gonna listen to? Classic rock (Skynyrd, etc.) or bands/singers that SOUND like classic rock. Big radio is NOT brainwashing these kids---They WANNA hear songs about pickup trucks, girls, drinkin', and acting silly. They DON'T want to hear "Pride," which is unfortunate, but it's true.
And what were these kids' parents listening to, when the kids were coming up? Southern rock, people like Bob Seger, Nugent, good British bands---So when was this generation of young people EXPOSED to "classic country?"
It's now a sub-genre, like blues, or bluegrass, which has a very dedicated, but small, audience. So good that we've got the Derailers, Dale Watson(a lot of his stuff can't be played, anyway, because of the language), and a host of country thoroughbreds, who are willing to play for smaller crowds, and smaller paydays, for the sake of their music.
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LJ Eiffert
- Posts: 5689
- Joined: 4 Jan 2007 9:45 am
- Location: California, USA
Hello Thomas Stanley,It's easy to fix if you got the right money to pay the FCC in they own rules they don't follow & that would take care of radio Stations who file in to who they are? I have spelled it out all over this forum in everybody's topic. Just like our freedow. What's your ss #.Yet the out cast or outlaws always wins & fair gets what? Just keep paying the toll & they keep control.It is very difflcult to win with the basic elements of when does 50% equal 100% of needless.As I was once tolded,if you don't work with them [THE INDUSTRY} their way they'll kill your Career.So,with all the right advice to fix it,they don't want it fixed. You've got my support in Nashville with me brother & I hope I've got your out here.If we all worked together we could take back what some people raped from us Musicians/Songwriters/Artist. God Bless,Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & Pigeons,Crawfish & Southern Spirit Band/ Young Country Records/Plain Country Records/Young Country Music BMI/ Eb-Tide Music BMI/Eiffert Records & Napoleon Country Records.
