Before I make the leap to a dobro with pickup???

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 16 Oct 2007 2:14 pm

I just want to get some of ya'lls opinion on the sound of a wetcher/scheerhorn with schertler pickup and preamp in it, as opposed to a Beard solid wood maghogany played through a mic.
Or for that matter, any good dobro with a schertler pickup in it, verses a good dobro played through a mic. Which do ya'll think would give the better tone?

I almost had my mind set on a wetcher/scheerhorn with the schertler in it, but thought I'd better ask you guys before I made the leap. I appreciate ya'lls help very much.

Terry

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 16 Oct 2007 2:50 pm

At what volume? Through a PA or an amplifier? In general I prefer the sound of a miked guitar to that of a pickup, but I don't play resonator guitar with drums and horns. In those situations, I play lap steel.

The Schertler Basik pickup is considered to be one of the best for resonator guitars.

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 16 Oct 2007 3:35 pm

Thanks Brad. I'm playing with a Gospel group that has several electrified instruments, and drums to.
I've been playing my Beard Goldtone through the PA system. It just don't sound to good to me. If I had one with a pickup then I could use an acoustic preamp and might get a better tone you think?

Terry

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 16 Oct 2007 4:02 pm

Brad,
I play with horns and small kit drums at times. this week's gig is 2 guitars, bass, reeds, trombone and cello and me on tri-cone. Only a mic will be used. it works. You just have to work the instrument spacing well. it also depends on the venue.

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 16 Oct 2007 4:45 pm

You did not say what kind or brand of mike you are using, and what do you set the PA controls at for the dobro? This makes a big difference.

I use a AKG C1000S condensor mike, and set the PA tone controls 'flat' to begin with, then usually back off the bass, and turn up the treble a little.

Most mikes can give an overly bassy and muddy sound.

If you are playing in a very loud group then, make sure you stay away from the drums and bass amp, turn down any monitor speaker close to you for your mike.

This is just what works well for me.

Thanx,
Jim

Rob Anderlik · Post by **Rob Anderlik** » 16 Oct 2007 4:59 pm

It's a little tricky to answer your question because there are so many possible combinations, but I hope you won't mind if I give it a try:

All things being equal, the better a guitar sounds acoustically, the better is should sound through a P.A. system, regardless of whether it is "amplified" via a pickup or a microphone. This assumes of course that we are comparing two different guitars with the same microphone and the same pickup system. At least this makes sense to me...

The "short answer" is that your guitar will sound best through a microphone.

The "long answer" is that live sound is a moving target at best. There is absolutely nothing consistent about it! Under ideal circumstances - for example: a great sounding room with an attentive audience - even a cheap microphone can sound fantastic. The trouble is, most of us don't get to play under those kind of circumstances as much as we might like to.

If you play out much, sooner or later you may wind up deciding you need a pickup in your guitar, if nothing else, as an insurance policy for those "less than ideal" circumstances, which are all too common, unfortunately. My sound rig includes a couple of good quality condensor mics as well as a pickup in my guitar which I run through a preamp and into an acoustic amplifier and then into the board. If it's a great sounding venue I usually go with a microphone only. In most other circumstances I find that I get the best results by taking advantage of the consistency (and strength of signal) of the pickup and combining that with the (usually but not always) better tone of the microphone and dialing in the blend to where it sounds best in the house and still gives me what I need to hear myself and mix well with the band.

Hope this helps!

RobA

Harrison Withers · Post by **Harrison Withers** » 16 Oct 2007 6:08 pm

um i use both pickup and mic through a raven labs blender pre-amp. either route needs a good pre imho

Robert Murphy · Post by **Robert Murphy** » 16 Oct 2007 6:24 pm

I also play in a church band, 3 guitars a banjo and mandolin all of them are plugged in or mic. We are in the loft of a small church and I played my acoustic Oahu with EMG pickup through the PA and it sounded good but the levels were inconsistant. Now I play a square neck Dobro with no amp no mic and I can adjust my picking to compliment the choirs' volume very well.

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 16 Oct 2007 6:42 pm

I like a wide condenser (it's a nady but, sounds great). I usually boost my bass a bit because i like a jazzy tone, I am leaning towards using a lavalier mic from now on. Wireless so that there's no fussy cabling to deal with. I have also used sm-58s and 57s and last weekend my sm-58 imitation by radio shack. sounded pretty good.

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 16 Oct 2007 7:04 pm

Well, I don't run the PA system, the piano player works the PA. It's his PA system.

But he has Shure Beta 58 mics, but I have an SM 57, and an audio tecnica(sp) that I could use for my dobro.
I'm trying to sell my Acoustasonic JR acoustic amp, to keep from hauling so much stuff around.
If I can get by with running my dobro through my SM 57 and through an award session acoustic preamp into the PA I'd just as soon do that. I really like the tone of the Beard solid wood mahaogany which was on a website that compared different dobros. I think ELderly has them for $850, which would be a lot cheaper than the wetcher scheehorn with pickup.
Rob, If I'm not mistaken it was your website that had the comparison of the differnt dobro tones.
Do you think I should keep my acoustasonic and do what your doing, by using a good mic, preamp, and acoustic amp, then into the board?
I appreciate ya'lls help.

Terry

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 16 Oct 2007 7:25 pm

fwiw I use the pre-amp built into the board. i've never needed anything else. I am all about carrying as little as I can after years of my 4x12 cabinet and my huge rack of gear.

Rob Anderlik · Post by **Rob Anderlik** » 17 Oct 2007 5:27 am

Terry;

Perhaps the best course of action would be to start with the guitar and a good quality microphone. If that works than no need for the pickup. if you find that you need the pickup, I would recommend going with the Schertler and then experimenting with your Acousticsonic to see how you like the results. If it works for you, great, if not, there are lots of options out there at various price levels. If at all possible I HIGHLY recommend that you try before you buy. Do a test drive at the local "Guitar-Mart" before spending your hard earned $$$

Regards,
RobA

Mike Black · Post by **Mike Black** » 17 Oct 2007 9:37 am

delete

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 17 Oct 2007 11:38 am

Thanks to all.
And Rob, thanks for your opinion and advice. It's always good.
I was wrong about the Beard Solid wood Mahagony, it's $875 at Elderly, the wetcher scheerhorn with schertler basik is $975. So it would only be $100 more to get the one with the pickup. Then I would have the pickup if I needed it. I may end up keepin the one I have. Nobody is in the buyin mood right now it seems.

Terry

Mark Switzer · Post by **Mark Switzer** » 17 Oct 2007 12:34 pm

Hey Terry: Check and see if that price includes the little preamp box for the Shertler, you`re probably gonna need it or something close as the pickup (it`s really a hi-tech contact mike,I think)needs phantom power to work. I`ve the Basik for a few months and find it far superior to anything else I`ve tried but to echo what everyone else said, there`s lots of factors involved.

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 18 Oct 2007 6:48 pm

Mark the pre amp comes with the Schertler Basik system, I think there's a volume and tone controls.
Thanks

One more question, I'm just undecided about getting the wetcher scheerhorn with the Scheretler Basik.
I've about decided to just get the wetcher scheerhorn without the pickup. Same guitar but only $750. This model has the F holes, there's another wetcher scheerhorn tobbaco sunburst same color as the other one, but with the round screen holes for $750.
Is there a difference in sound in these two? If it were ya'll which of these two would you prefer?
Or, would you go ahead and get the One with the Schertler Basik in it and be done with it. I'm a long way from being a real good player, so maybe I don't need the pickup just yet.
One more question and I'll quit.LOL! Is ther anyway of using a Preamp with an acoustic dobro(no pickup) I mean I have a Award session, and my acoustasonic has a mic channel with XLR. This is probly a dumb question, but I just don't know much about these things.Thanks for ya'lls help.
Terry

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 18 Oct 2007 7:41 pm

Heres my 2cents,For my dobro Lace dobro sensor pickup thru a bobro into a baggs para acoustic into the pa or a crate acoustic amp. If a magnetic pickup is used, the strings need to be steel.
T he bobro makes it real twangy, and it actually seems to help with feedback even tho it is a real mid-toney boost. With it off sounds weissenbornish to me. I have to play over drums and an A.D.D. guitarist who never shuts up. The option of stepping up to the mic for solos is there pickup or not. May as well have one for monitor purposes if nothing else.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Oct 2007 3:26 pm

Steve Norman wrote:...For my dobro Lace dobro sensor pickup thru a BoBro...

After watching Bobbe's video I bought a BoBro. No matter what I did it wouldn't sound anything like the one in the video. I even contacted Bobbe to find out what sort of amplifier he was using, and was disappointed to hear that he was using an identical amplifier to mine.
Ultimately, if you can get it to produce the right sound, using an amplified lap steel and a BoBro would cut through the other instruments and sound like an acoustic instrument.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 19 Oct 2007 4:03 pm

did you use a carbon or wood bar instead of steel? That was the finisher with the Bobro for me. I use a goodrich carbon matchbro bar which Bobbe sells for about 30$ US. With the steel bar it doesnt seem to work a well. I also lift my trailing fingers on the bar so there is more string noise, which seems to sound more authentic too.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 19 Oct 2007 7:33 pm

Just to throw in my two cents worth, I've been playing my Dobro in a gospel band for several years. We have the standard bluegrass instruments, a (loud) banjo, a mandolin, rhythm guitar, stand-up bass (sometimes our alternate player plays the electric bass) and of all things a Q chord used very discretely, and me on the Dobro. I don't have and have never used any pick-up on my Dobro. I mike the Dobro, and it's important to understand the "sweet spot" of whatever mike you use. The mike is into my Roland Cube 30 on stage which allows the guys to hear me, and then the amplifier is miked into the PA. I control the Dobro mike volume simply by moving in (or out) on the mike.

Personally, I hate resonator pick-ups with a passion, but it's only because I don't like the tone obviously.

Geo

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 19 Oct 2007 10:07 pm

I have yet to hear a "natural" sounding pickup on a dobro. I've seen Jerry Douglas when he had that huge rack, and his Scheerhorn sounded like a lap steel. If, like Steve Norman says, you can step up to a mike, and be heard, without feedback, you don't need a pickup anyway. ALWAYS go with the least gear possible, but the most needed.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 20 Oct 2007 12:05 am

I like to combine the pickup sound with the mic. I can hear the pickup over the drums and bass on stage, but the audience hears the miked natural sound, I hope. I use a magnetic pickup, I cant hear the fishman or the feathers

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 20 Oct 2007 12:55 am

Steve Norman wrote:I like to combine the pickup sound with the mic. I can hear the pickup over the drums and bass on stage, but the audience hears the miked natural sound, I hope. I use a magnetic pickup, I cant hear the fishman or the feathers

Makes sense---run the pickup to the monitors, mike to FOH.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 20 Oct 2007 1:38 am

George Rout wrote:

Personally, I hate resonator pick-ups with a passion, but it's only because I don't like the tone obviously.

Geo

I agree with George, if it's not about tone then what do you want ?
Obviously the best sound is the most "Natural" IMHO, therefore miked up with a pretty accurate mike is the preferred choice.
Having a magnetic pickup installed and using it just for monitoring purposes whilst sending the mike 'out front' will make you play a different way than if you actually heard the acoustic sound.

It obviously depends on your level of competency and general capabilities, but why should you need to hear yourself in any other context than sitting in the mix at the appropriate level.? That's what the listener will hear.
Just my slant on it.
Baz

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 20 Oct 2007 3:37 am

Basil wrote "Just my slant on it. Baz"

Is that pun a forward or backward slant????

Seriously Baz, you put it into the correct words, I want to hear "my colour/tone" whatever we want to call it. When I use a pick-up and I'll admit I haven't tried them all, but I feel that it's "not me that I'm hearing".

Thanks Baz, I appreciate that.
Geo