Using pedal A , with F lever on E9

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 10 Oct 2007 7:34 am

When using this combo, what are some of the typical moves that you guys make? I find myself either using that position as a transitional inversion, either straight, or releasing the A pedal for the 7th. Sometimes I pick around in that position, but not too much.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 10 Oct 2007 7:43 am

It's very useful for a descending scale from the 5th down to the root, using the top five strings. THEN let the A pedal off for that 7th....

RR

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 Oct 2007 7:47 am

I cannot get along without the A & F combination. It affords another handy position to get a chord.
For instance, the C chord is available at the 3rd fret with the A&B combination, at the 8th fret with no pedals or levers and at the 11th fret with the A&F combination. Like Bob says, and I agree, "I am an F lever junkie".

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 10 Oct 2007 8:05 am

Also the standard: no pedals, strings 34, 12, 45, then up 3 frets, AF, same strings. If you're good at harmonics with middle finger, try the same one, middle finger chiming on strings 3,2,4, rake up to next string without the chiming. A Big E trick I learned. I hope this makes some sense. (probably not

) For an example of the last, listen to "Wild Mountain Thyme" on Buddy's White album, right at the end.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 10 Oct 2007 10:08 am

Here's some ways I use it........

Using the F lever only! Going from a I to a IV chord. Key of G (3rd fret) play strings 3,5,4,3 in that order. While it's ringing, slide to the 4th fret adding the lever while you're sliding. Keep the lever engaged and play the same strings in the same order. While it's ringing, slide to the 5th fret. Do the same again and slide to the 6th fret.......Then go to the 8th fret (no lever) and do the same move again. Sounds good on either a slow or fast tune.

I use it on the bridge of Orange Blossom Special. In the A part go to the 8th fret with the A pedal and F lever engaged. Play strings 5,2,4,1,3,1,4,2,5 in that order very fast. Do it three times and then end the run by playing strings 1, then 2. Move it to the 15th fret and do the same thing for the E part of the bridge.

When you're using the A & F changes together you can go from a IV to a IVminor very easily. Say you're at the third fret C chord with the A & B pedals depressed and you want to go to an F then an F minor. Just release the B pedal and go to fret 4 while adding the F lever. to go to the IV(F) minor just release the F lever.

There are so many ways to use this lever with different combinations it's scary......JH in Va.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 10 Oct 2007 11:39 am

I mostly play out of 3 major chord positions: no pedals, A+B and A+F. My harmony scales going up and down the neck use all 3 positions. Often I'll "land" on the A+F and noodle a bit using the chromatic strings, releasing the A pedal, or releasing the F and lowering the E's. A full scale is available without moving the bar at the A+F position.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 Oct 2007 12:47 pm

A good positon to find a low D chord is on the 1st fret with the A & F engaged

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 10 Oct 2007 3:41 pm

After reading Jerry's post, I stumbled on this. Probably been done a zillion times, but not by me. I love steel just for this, when someone posts something and it leads to something you've never done before.

Hope this works..

[tab]
G to G run using the F knee lever (Fast or Slow)

1______3________3_______________6_________6___________________
2_______________________________________________________________
3_________3________3--4_____________6_________6--8_____________
4___3________3___________4F--6F_________6F__________8--________
5______________________________________________________________
6______________________________________________________________
7______________________________________________________________
8______________________________________________________________
9______________________________________________________________
10_____________________________________________________________

1_______10__________10_________________________________________
2______________________________________________________________
3___________10__________10--10B_________________________________
4___10__________10______________________________________________
5_______________________________________________________________
6_______________________________________________________________
7_______________________________________________________________
8_______________________________________________________________
9_______________________________________________________________
10______________________________________________________________
[/tab]

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 11 Oct 2007 3:43 am

And another..
[tab]
G to G descending run using the F knee lever (Real pretty played slow)

1_____________10_________________6_______________________
2________________________________________________________
3___10B--10______________8---6________________4--3_______
4_________________10--8------6F_______6F--4F-----3_______
5________________________________________________________
6________________________________________________________
7________________________________________________________
8________________________________________________________
9________________________________________________________
10_______________________________________________________
[/tab]

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 11 Oct 2007 6:58 am

Some great examples. The F lever is a must! The only thing I probably don't take full advantage of is the single note riffs that can be done with A+F/F. I find myself doing 2 string slides up the neck in various order and sequence with open, to A+B, to A+F, or F. It's a nice variation to contrast the B+C slides. Anybody out there use other combinations with the F lever?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 11 Oct 2007 7:04 am

Fred,
The A,B & F combination gives you diminished chords.

And any particular chord repeats itself every 4th fret.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 11 Oct 2007 7:41 am

I have a couple questions

1. Does anyone have any licks in the AF pocket position that involve the moving of the bar or pedals/levers? I tend to just pick the scale there or slide in and out of that position .

2. I remember bOb (i think) saying the AF position was important for blues and rock... but I'm guessing its not at the three frets up from root position but somewhere else in relationship to the root....just as BC two frets back from root is a handy bluesy spot. In relation to the root (or if its more applicable, in relationship to AB), where does the AF "blues box" lie?

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 11 Oct 2007 8:03 am

Bro Erv, i beg to differ, it's an augmented chord when you add the F lever to A&B
adding the F lever raises string 4 & 8 : G to G# which is a + or aug(mented) 5 (fifth)
example on strings 358 or 345 : 4 bars
/ 3rd fret w : A&B : C / add lever F to A&B : C+(aug) / fret 4 A&F : F / fret 4 up to 9 lever F :A° & C°/dim(inished)

w: lever F, how 'bout a lil' vertical lever half step drop on string 5 on the 3 above 0 position ?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 11 Oct 2007 8:15 am

Brother, Crowbear,
You are abswolutely correct!
I had my tongue wrapped around my eyetooth and I couldn't see what I was saying!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 11 Oct 2007 8:59 am

Ben Jones wrote:I have a couple questions

1. Does anyone have any licks in the AF pocket position that involve the moving of the bar or pedals/levers? I tend to just pick the scale there or slide in and out of that position .

2. I remember bOb (i think) saying the AF position was important for blues and rock... but I'm guessing its not at the three frets up from root position but somewhere else in relationship to the root....just as BC two frets back from root is a handy bluesy spot. In relation to the root (or if its more applicable, in relationship to AB), where does the AF "blues box" lie?

Slide from A+F on the I chord back one fret to A+B on the V chord. In key of G, this is 6AF to 5AB. Just an example.
Not me. I use the F lever a lot in country stuff, but I tend to avoid it in blues. Sometimes I'll use it on the IV7 chord at the #5 fret (8th fret in key of E), but I don't really think of it as part of the "blues box".

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 11 Oct 2007 10:17 am

bOb, that's a nice move. Try that same move, but instead of engaging A&B right away, JUST release the A pedal then apply A&B.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 11 Oct 2007 11:36 am

bOB wrote:

Not me. I use the F lever a lot in country stuff, but I tend to avoid it in blues. Sometimes I'll use it on the IV7 chord at the #5 fret (8th fret in key of E), but I don't really think of it as part of the "blues box".

ah, I was mistaken

...it was the second string lower i was thinking of (i think...?)
Im gonna just keep guessing changes till i get lucky..haha

admin · Post by **b0b** » 11 Oct 2007 12:01 pm

Fred Glave wrote:bOb, that's a nice move. Try that same move, but instead of engaging A&B right away, JUST release the A pedal then apply A&B.

Yes, that would put a diminished chord in the middle of the transition: 6AF > 5F > 5AB. Very cool.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 11 Oct 2007 12:15 pm

does it matter what song you use the a/f with ??
i am a hard core classic country player and i find that on many songs that the a/f won't sound right
for example " wild side of life " in c, if i play an F at the 4th fret it sounds bad but i can play a F on 1st or 8th and it sounds great..so i guess what i am asking is does the a/f work with some songs / music and not work with others ??

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 11 Oct 2007 1:35 pm

Calvin

The A pedal/F lever combination can expose some tuning issues. The main reason is that many people are tuning their 3rd string a touch flat. That's fine when the 3rd string is the 3rd of the scale (such as a G chord at fret 3) but when you slide up three frets, that 3rd string is now the 5th note in the chord - and it's still FLAT! That doesn't sound good...

One can learn to manipulate the guitar in tune with some bar pressure, but this anomaly may be the reason you're not enjoying a simple major chord with your A pedal/ F lever.

RR

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 11 Oct 2007 1:41 pm

I find that the typical A/F position on most every guitar I've ever played, needs to be played just a hair sharp in relation to the fret to blend with the rest of the chords in a given key.
JE:-)>

admin · Post by **b0b** » 11 Oct 2007 2:21 pm

Calvin Walley wrote:does it matter what song you use the a/f with ??
i am a hard core classic country player and i find that on many songs that the a/f won't sound right
for example " wild side of life " in c, if i play an F at the 4th fret it sounds bad but i can play a F on 1st or 8th and it sounds great..so i guess what i am asking is does the a/f work with some songs / music and not work with others ??

If you're trying to nail a pre-Lloyd Green style, the F lever might not sound quite right. It's not a "vintage" change from the early days of pedal steel.

Roger Rettig wrote:The A pedal/F lever combination can expose some tuning issues. The main reason is that many people are tuning their 3rd string a touch flat. That's fine when the 3rd string is the 3rd of the scale (such as a G chord at fret 3) but when you slide up three frets, that 3rd string is now the 5th note in the chord - and it's still FLAT! That doesn't sound good...

The pedaled C# note on the 5th string should be tuned flat along with the G# on the 3rd and 6th strings. The F note should then be tuned twice as flat, and the chord will sound in tune with itself.

It's important to aim a bit sharp of the fret when playing the A+F position. It's flat at the nut.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 11 Oct 2007 5:43 pm

after rechecking my tuning i played C going to an F
with and with out back up tracks . i also tried playing the F a little sharp.
i now think B0B nailed it because with out the back up tracks the F using A/F souned fine, but when i play with Jeff Newmans Honky Tonk heros tracks it sounds off

thanks fellas

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Oct 2007 7:00 pm

b0b wrote:
The pedaled C# note on the 5th string should be tuned flat along with the G# on the 3rd and 6th strings. The F note should then be tuned twice as flat, and the chord will sound in tune with itself.

Unfortunately this leads to the diminished, augmented and minor sharp 7 (A and B pedals down, 7th string as a root) chords being out of tune.

I tune my F change as flat as the C# and G# notes, but no flatter.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 11 Oct 2007 7:18 pm

Different people's ears can be happy with different compromises. I tune my F change a bit flatter than my C# and G#, but not twice as flat.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Using pedal A , with F lever on E9

Using pedal A , with F lever on E9

G to G using the F knee lever (Fast or Slow)

G to G descending run