Slants vs Pedals

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 9 Oct 2007 9:11 am

I have two necks on my steel, one with levers (A & B pedals) and the other is non-pedal tuned to C6. I like this idea because I wanted the pedal and non-pedal sound in one instrument. However, the beauty of the pedal steel is no just the availability of easily played multiple voicings, but the "stretching" sound to arrive at that voicing.

I've been working on slants on the C6 neck and I just can't get a good dramatic sound using them. I'm not nearly as interested in just playing the chords but slowly slanting and benefiting from that sound of movement. It's freaking difficult and, even when I nail it, it doesn't quite have the dramatic effect than can be achieved with a straight bar and pedals.

Does anyone else find this to be true? I know this probably not the forum to get an unbiased comparison from, but I'd like to know if you guys use slants mostly to reach different chords or to get that "stretching" sound.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 9 Oct 2007 9:53 am

To me, the bar slant sound is richer than the stretching sound. Here's a little essay I wrote in 1978 about it:
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Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 9 Oct 2007 10:14 am

James, if you ever get a chance to attend a steel guitar convention or a steel jamming session, take special notice of how many times that you now see the pedal players using bar slants.

I never paid much attention to this until I spent a recent tour in the US and was told to watch some of the pedal steel players and how much they were using bar slants. Many didn't use slants of course; however, more often than not, most of the older players (the long time players) were using bar slants more than I had ever realized.

I think pedals ease the effort of getting those extra voicings without moving the bar to other frets; however, there is still a unique sound that a bar slant produces that pedals can't.

"No, no, no," my intention is not to slight or belittle pedal steelers, I am speaking (typing) merely of sound and tone.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 9 Oct 2007 10:36 am

Well, I'm just looking for feedback,not putting down any convention. I want both, hence the double-neck. Having the versatility of both methods is my ultimate goal.

Admittingly, I'm just frustrated by my terrible intonation with slants.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 9 Oct 2007 10:42 am

FWIW
I started on steel with no pedals. Mostly used 6th type tunings.

Now I play a U12, 8 & 5.tuned Bb6/Eb9. I still use slants, either by habit, or sound I dont know.

I warm up playing 2 note harmonized scales. Forward slants, up and down the neck. Cool sounds when one swings the tail of the bar around.

Blues and rock I use those forward slants a lot.
Long continuous sustain, with one attack.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 9 Oct 2007 10:43 am

James Mayer wrote:Admittingly, I'm just frustrated by my terrible intonation with slants.

That might be the crux of the problem. It's hard to get a "dramatic" sound if your playing is tentative. As you gain confidence in your ability to execute slants, the dynamic qualities of your music will improve.

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 9 Oct 2007 11:11 am

James, if I can learn slants anyone can. I started out on dobro and it took me a long time to achieve proper intonation with my slants. I tried to work around them and not use them but it's not the same sound, once you master them they sound awesome so just stick with it and it'll come.

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 9 Oct 2007 12:08 pm

A few years ago I composed a tune for the 6 String
Lap Steel which focused on the pedal "feel". The
slants help but that is not the whole story. The movement of the bar and the timing are both very important.
The tune was "Lappin'It Up" and I still have all the
files. Consists of MP3 and Tab with two slowed down
MP3's for Part 1 and Part 2. Done on a six string Gibson BR-9.
It may be of help for those who are ready to work
at the technique. If interested in persuing please
feel free to contact me. Good Luck James.
roythomson at eastlink dot ca.
Link to MP3
http://www.freefilehosting.net/download/MjgwMDI=

Scott Thomas · Post by **Scott Thomas** » 9 Oct 2007 12:25 pm

For me, it was easier to play slants in tune with a standard lap steel scale of around 22 to 24 than the longer scale guitars I've had. The wider string spacing on 6 string guitars also make it much to get better intonation for me.

So do you have a longer scale steel with 10 strings? The physical nature of the instrument itself is also part of the equation with any trouble you might be having getting slants in tune, and in the lower neck postion may be next to impossible to get adjacent string slants in tune.

Just to be clear, it can be done. Many great players slant accurately on every size guitar. I'm just saying that you may have to be more patient with yourself given the fact that your instrument may be making it a bit more difficult right now.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 9 Oct 2007 12:33 pm

Well, the instrument I have been practicing slants on is a 6-string with a 22.22" scale. I have great control over the bar (a Shubb SP2, that's not the issue. It's knowing the angle of the slant. I've mostly been attempting the forward slant minor triad across the three treble strings of the C6 where the root is on the little E string.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 Oct 2007 1:33 pm

Shubb SP2, that's not the issue.

Sorry James, but that IS the main issue, to be proficient at slants you need to master a bullet nose bar. There is no way you can accurately do split slants with the bar you use.

Post by **b0b** » 9 Oct 2007 1:44 pm

Basil is correct. Two note slants are difficult and 3 note slants are impossible with a Stevens-style bar like the Shubb SP2. Switch to the BJS Jerry Byrd bar (3/4" x 2 7/8") and you'll have much better luck with bar slants.

http://www.pedalsteel.com/bjs/bjs.html

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 9 Oct 2007 2:03 pm

I don't understand why it would matter as the SP2 has a bullet nose on it and it's long enough. I have one of the lead-filled glass bullet bars that I can try, but it's basically the same playing surface and bullet slope.

What am I missing?

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 Oct 2007 2:18 pm

What am I missing?

Experience maybe ?

A reso/blues type bar is not going to cut it with ACCURATE slants .. The electric steel is far less forgiving than the acoustic one, where in that world the tonalities tend to mask slight intonation problems.
FWIW

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 Oct 2007 2:25 pm

You also said "I have one of the lead-filled glass bullet bars that I can try"
I doubt if the lead filled bar has the necessary pedigree ! i.e. ACCURATE radius on the bullet nose.

Well, B0b's recommendation is THE way to go, If the BJS bar doesn't appeal to you, then consider TriboTone
But stay with the recommended size, it's taken years of learning to arrive at the 'Optimum' bar style and size for slants etc.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 9 Oct 2007 2:37 pm

Aren't we just talking about getting a bar to touch the three strings (in the slant I mentioned above) at the right place? Maybe this is the part that I don't understand. It seems that a standard straight "bottleneck" slide could hit the strings at the necessary spots. I didn't think anything special was needed as long as the bar is not crooked. I wasn't using the bullet end for anything other than "split" slants.

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 9 Oct 2007 2:59 pm

I know I don't have that much experience, but the bullet end of an SP-2 WILL give you accurate slants; I've managed it though I am not by any means a master at it. Dogmatically repeating that you can only do it with a bullet bar doesn't change the fact that you can do it with others, it just takes time and practice. I know, bullet bars make it easier but for those of us that can't use one (carpal tunnel) it is a blessing to have an SP2.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 9 Oct 2007 3:01 pm

I'm in complete agreement with Baz and b0b ...

"Wristing" slanting ... moving the entire hand ... to accomplish a slant ... can get you by for passing combinations on dobro ...

But to achieve the type of intonation required on electric steel ... as far as 3 string slants (by far the hardest) ... you need to develop a slanting technique that uses "fingers" not the wrist.

And again as Baz and b0b have pointed out ... if you want to become proficient with slants on an electric steel guitar ... a bullet bar is the way to go (and that Tribotone is da bomb).

I prefer a 2 3/4" x 3/4" ... but others can execute fine slants with a different size.

And especially as Baz points out ... we are talking years of development ...

We are all trying just trying to help ...

And Keith ... I've seen guys do a real good job "finger slanting" with an SP2 ... forward slants that is.

But when it comes time to throw reverse slants ... as fast and accurate as found in masters like Jerry Byrd ... well, I've yet to see anyone preform them with adequately with the "sculptured" bars ... on electric steel.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 9 Oct 2007 3:06 pm

"We are all trying just trying to help ... Mr. Green"

I know this and I appreciate it very much.

I'm just trying to understand what a bullet bar has that my SP2 doesn't. That's where I need an explanation. The above "wrist" and "fingers" conversation makes sense to me and I use the "finger" method as I've seen done on the Rick Alexandar videos. I think that this method is MUCH MUCH easier to grip on the SP2 than on a bullet bar.

I just need an explanation of WHY the bar that is being recommended for slants has become the bar of choice.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 9 Oct 2007 3:08 pm

You posted while I was editing ... sorry

To answer simply ... Reverse Slanting.

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 9 Oct 2007 3:11 pm

Have you guys actually used an SP2? It's easier to do reverses with it than a bullet, the back end is rounded...

DeWitt Scott · Post by **DeWitt Scott** » 9 Oct 2007 3:19 pm

James - here is a few hints on slanting the bar on the C6th tuning. E-C-A-G-E-C 1st string to the 6th.

As there have been several bars recommended I would suggest the Jerry Byrd Dunlop 919 bar for a six string steel or the Dunlop 918 for the 8 string guitar.

Forward 2 strings slant

1st string at the 7th fret and the 3rd string at the 6th fret.

Suggestion
When play this slant push your left forward slightly. The nose of the bar not neccessarily on the string at the 7th fret. The 3rd string at the 6th fret. A certain amount of ear to help determine the intonation will be needed but with that slight right hand movement it will help.

All the slants that I use are made by the use of the thumb of the right hand. Not by moving the left arm.

2nd string at the 8th fret and the 3rd string at the 7th fret fret. Use the same rule as above.

The higher up on the fret board the less amount of slant is needed.

Forward 3 string string slants.

1st sring at the 12th fret, 2nd string at the 11th fret and the 3rd string at the 10th fret.
Same process but push the bar a little further away from you and a little bit more pressure on the bar. The nose of the bar will not neccessarily be on the 1st string.

1st string at the 12th fret, 2nd string on the 12th fret and the 4th string at the 11th fret. Here the nose of the bar is stationed between the 1st and 2nd strings with the bar on the 4th string at the 11th fret. Here is where it is important to have a correct bar or the 1st and 2nd strings may not be exactly in tune.

1st string at the 12th fret, the 2nd string at the 12th fret and 3rd string at the 11th fret. Same rule applies here is the 3 string slant listed above.

2 string Reverse slants

1st string at the 7th fret and 3rd string at the 8th fret. Do this slant by use of the thumb and then reverse the 2 strings frets. As you push the bar the to the 7th fret on the 3rd string move the 1st string to the 8th fret letting the tone sustain. Like a G7 to a C chord. When I wind up with the 1st string at the 8th fret and 3rd string at the 7th fret I put a little pressure on the bar and push the bar slightly away from me. I use this quite often in my playing. Hawaiian Wedding Song and Harbor Lights just to name two.

This is good advise but not as good as having the Jerry Byrd DVD course on how to learn Jerry's technique. You can hear what Jerry is saying as well as seeing him do it. If you are interested in this course let me know. scotty@scottysmusic.com Scotty

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 9 Oct 2007 3:19 pm

Keith, yes .. of course.

I don't reply to topics just out of opinion ... or out of "what I think" ...

Its all about experimentation to me ...

If you can throw a reverse slant as fast and as frequently as you need with a Shubb Sp2 ... thats great

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 9 Oct 2007 3:24 pm

Not trying to just annoy anyone, but seriously, if he is really interested in learning to use this bar to do this stuff it is doable. To read the posts here you'd think he was doomed to never be in tune again. An SP2 is the easiest, most useful of the grooved bars to do that with.

BTW, is anyone using the small Tribotone bar? I was thinking of getting one, until I saw that the Zirc bars are available again. What is the difference, money notwithstanding?

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 9 Oct 2007 3:28 pm

I have a 2 3/4" x 3/4" Tribotone (according to Eric, the first he built that size) ...

And I'm sayin' ... it is DA BOMB

Perfect thumb indent for JB style reverse slanting ... virtually noiseless ...

And just a joy to hold in the hand.

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