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Topic: Is it safe to have 4 or more changes on 1 pedal or lever? |
Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Sep 2007 3:15 pm |
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I notice that most copedants I've seen never have more than 3 changes on 1 pedal or lever. I understand that too many raises may cause the pedal to be stiff and might cause cabinet drop.
How about 4 lowers (3 halfs and 1 full) on a single lever?
How about adding another 1.5 raise to 4 lowers for a total of 5 changes on 1 pedal? Is the 1.5 raise in addition to 4 lowers too much for the changer to handle, possibly causing my guitar to explode?
This 5 changes I want to put on a new "blues pedal" that will give me pentatonic minor blues notes in the
no pedals position
I wanted to ask experienced people if this is a good idea before I start ordering extra pull-rods. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2007 3:24 pm Re: Is it safe to have 4 or more changes on 1 pedal or lever
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
How about 4 lowers (3 halfs and 1 full) on a single lever?
How about adding another 1.5 raise to 4 lowers for a total of 5 changes on 1 pedal? |
Sure, it should work fine if all those pullers will fit.
I have 4 pulls (3 whole steps and 1 half step) on a lever on several different kinds of guitars and it works fine.
It's easier to mash a pedal than push a knee lever, so 5 pulls on one pedal should be fine. |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2007 4:41 pm
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| Might, maybe, possibly, ...could be a problem if you have nylon bushings on your shaft ends. Thats a lot of torque pressing aganist the pulling side of the bushing...causing a premature "wear" spot. If you don't use that pedal a lot it probably won't matter. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 9 Sep 2007 7:10 pm
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Jacek.....From my experience I think it might depend on the brand of guitar. On my old ShoBud S-12 I had what's called the "BooWah" pedal on my LKL for a good while. It was in the standard E9/B6 tuning and the lever lowered string 5 B to Bb/A#, raised string 9 B to C, lowered string ll E to Eb/D#, and lowered string 12 B to Ab/G#. There were four pulls as you can see. It worked very easily on the 'bud but later I tried that change on my current BMI and it was just too stiff no matter what I did so I put the bottom three changes back on a floor pedal............JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 9 Sep 2007 7:45 pm
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I'm not sure which changes you are considering on that new pedal you mention, but there is an easier way to get pentatonic minor notes on a uni. In addition to your A pedal C# raises on strings 5 and 9, add that same A pedal raise to string 12. This gives you 2 1/2 octaves of C# minor chord and scale notes. That A pedal then togles you between the 7b and tonic, a very nice bend in pentatonic single note runs. Strings 4, 8 and 11 are flat 3rds. Strings 1 and 7 are the fourth. My LKV raises those to G for the 5b. The A pedal position is a very powerful pentatonic minor position across all 12 strings that is not available on extended E9 or standard C6 (at least not to the same extent).
Release the A pedal and you have the IIIb chord (also the relative major chord).
From the A pedal minor position, up two frets (A pedal released) is the IV chord. Up two more is the V.
Also, from the A pedal minor position, slide down one fret and add the B pedal for the V. Adding my LKV half-step raise on strings 1 and 7 makes that a V7. Down two frets is IV or IV7.
Also, from the A pedal minor position, go down two frets and add the F lever to get a VIIb chord. Start on that chord and slide up two frets (releasing the F lever) for a nice blues slide into the tonic minor chord. If you use strings 5,6,9 or 9,10,12, those are power chords and you don't even have to worry about the F lever (which only affects the 3rd).
There is a whole minor pentatonic and minor blues/jazz world at and within a few frets of that A pedal minor position.
From that A pedal minor position, slide up 5 frets (or down 7), let off the A pedal and engage the E lower lever. This is a different inversion of the same tonic minor, but now you are in B6 mode, which is loaded with its own pentatonic minor possibilities.
The B and C pedals give another minor chord inversion. And the F lever alone gives a diminished, which can substitute for a 7th chord. I'll leave it to you to figure out how they can be worked into the above stuff.
The uni tuning with that A pedal raise on string 12 is the most powerful minor key tuning I have found, either pentatonic or otherwise. In addition to blues and jazz minors, it really works well for classical minor key stuff. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 7:18 am
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| No, not safe. I know a guy that was killed doing it. |
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Steve English
From:
Baja, Arizona
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 7:49 am
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_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 8:01 am
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I have four "pulls" on both my Right Knee Right and Right Knee Left on my Franklin and it's not "tight".
On my RKL, on the E9th neck I raise the 1st string a full tone, 2nd string a half tone and lower the 6th string a full tone (and a 1/2 tone split with the B pedal), and on the C6th neck I lower the 3rd string a half tone.
On my RKR, on the E9th I lower the 2nd string a full tone (with a half tone feel stop), Raise the 7th string a half tone and lower the 9th string a half tone. And on the C6th neck I lower the 2nd string a half tone. |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 8:10 am 4 pulls
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| I use four on my LKV. Lower 2 a 1/2 tone, raise 5 & 10 a 1/2 tone and lower 6 a whole tone. LKL has one pull, F# to G#, LKR lowers 4 & 8, RKL raises 4 & 8 and lowers 3 on C6th and RKR lowers 2 & 9 and raises 3 on C6th neck. I use pedal #4 for the Franklin pedal. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 8:14 am
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| --------------and a partridge in a pear tree---> |
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Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 12:47 pm
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| If I recall correctly, Paul Franklin has 9 changes on his 4th pedal: 3 on the E9th and 6 on the C6th. |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Sep 2007 8:35 am
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Thanks guys. It seems safe to proceed then 
David Doggett: I'm converting my Uni-12 to 10 string E9th. I find 12 strings too hard to find my way around, at least for now. I might convert it back someday so I'll remember that 12 string a pedal change you mentioned.
For those interested, the Blues pedal on my Carter will do the following and give me blues scale notes in the zero fret no pedals position:
F#
D#->D
G#->G
E
B-->D
G#->G
F#
E
B
E-->D
Note that the bottom 2 string are different than standard e9th. I will have the 9 string change to D on a knee lever.
After figuring out how to make changes to the pedals and levers, I like the steel even more. It's so great that you can customize it and experiment. This probably won't be the last time I make a change to the setup. |
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Roger Edgington
From:
San Antonio, Texas USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 8:28 am
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| I have 4 changes on my Zum D-10 on the Rt, knee Rt. I lower 2nd a whole tone,raise 7th a half,lower 9th a half tone, and raise the 4th on the C neck a half tone. It's been that way for 9 years and is not hard to push, however it could be a problem on some steels. |
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Larry Strawn
From:
Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 9:32 am Question
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Can someone answer a question for me?
I"m not trying to start a tuning war here, but how hard is it to tune those 4 changes on the same lever and keep them true?
No one has asked this question and I'm just wondering.
Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Larry Strawn
From:
Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 6:11 am
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Thanks Hook,
The last guitar I had had 6 pulls on one knee lever and I never could get them true [they kept changing on me as I tuned!] About drove me nuts, more so than usual anyway.
If all of ya'll can get this amount of pulls to work properly it kind of confirms what I was thinking, the quitar probably needed some under carriage adjustments that I wasn't getting right.
Thanks again Hook
Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Bob Hickish
From:
Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Sep 2007 5:00 pm
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Quote
" I know a guy that was killed doing it. 
bobster your are a funny guy !
larry
Quote
" [they kept changing on me as I tuned!] "
Thats that guitar you got from " Acme Steel guitar & storm door Co ."
Call the funny guy above and get a good one !!  |
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Larry Strawn
From:
Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Sep 2007 7:23 pm Acme Steel Guitars and Storm Doors
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Hick,
Actually it was a top of the line guitar,, it just needed more TLC on the undercarriage than I was capable of doing!! But I tried!!!!!  
Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Sep 2007 4:22 am
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Jacek, once you get her "up and running", please let us hear some of the stuff you're doing with this pedal!  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2007 7:41 am
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| Quote: |
| --------------and a partridge in a pear tree---> |
rotflmfao!
Talk about a sensory-overload thread...just kidding, sorta, but it IS funny seeing all these changes gone over in one fairly short thread.
I didn't notice if anyone mentioned it, but depending on the guitar "helper springs" somewhere on one or more of the changes may "loosen" the pull if you can't adjust it far enough. I've done it with my 400 and 1000 where adjustment is somewhat limited to spring changes, and those affect the return requiring precise balance. I found that by messing around with different springs as "helpers" I could still get a quick return, but lighten up the pull. On my Fenders' copedent there's not a 4-string pull, but thete IS a 1 1/2 step raise on the 4th string (equivalent to doing it on something like the 9th or 10th gage-wise on E9) and a full step raise on the second string (a .020). That takes a LOT of "oomph", and to keep the guitar from eventually ending up falling off stage right, one helper makes it light and smooth.
Of course, it IS different on the cable guitars because of the lack of bellcrank holes to mess with and such - but I actually did the same thing to a similar set of *lowers* on my GFI Ultra that were just beyond being adjustable to a comfort level-or where th guitar didn't want to slide a hair. Works great.
And I seem to recall when I saw Doug's (Earnest) GFI he showed me the same kind of thing, done with rubber bands! If that's not what they were used for, they DID at least give me the idea - thanks Doug.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 18 Sep 2007 9:46 pm
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Ron Elliott used to use 5 pulls on his 4th pedal to take the guitar from a standard E9 to a full A6. He said he did this while working with Jack Greene because he got tired of lugging around a double-neck guitar when he rarely needed the C6 neck on Jack's music. It does depend on the guitar. On my Whitney's (both a D-12 and a S-12 Uni) I drop my 12th B to an A along with the usual G# to A raises on 3, 6, and 10 and the increase in tension is barely perceptible. And there is no drop or detuning on a Whitney.
PRR |
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