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Topic: String height over the neck: Why the increase? |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 6:48 am |
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Like probably most who have plaid both, pedal and non-pedal steel I am wondering: Why are strings on most, if not all, modern pedal steel guitars so much further away (higher) from the neck/fret-board than on most non pedal steels?
Just look at a Fender non-pedal (and yes, their early PSG's too) and compare it to most everything that came along and after the early Sho-Bud's and Emmons'. The string distance has gone from about 1/2" to 3/4"!
What do you think was or is the reason for this increase?
Do you believe string clearance from the neck affects how the guitar sounds?
Do you believe one or the other approach makes it easier to play the instrument?
Which approach do you feel looks better? (Do you think it's just about looks?)
... J-D. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 8:55 am
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| Mike, are you saying that when you reduce the space between the strings and fretboard the tone sounds thinner? I assumed that the height between the strings and fretboard was determined by the pickup and that the tone and sensitivity was being accounted for. |
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Ron Sodos
From:
San Antonio, Texas USA
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 9:59 am String height
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| I never heard of strings being 1/2" to 3/4" above the pickups. My steels (I have 3) all have string height above pickups at about 3/16" to 1/4" and no more. Maybe i am reading your post wrong! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 10:05 am
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| No Ron, he's talking about height above the neck, not the pickup. Anyhow, as Michael said, it improves the tone somewhat, and it also keeps the fretboard from being scratched by the picks. (Just look at an old, well-played Fender. The fretboards are almost always scuffed up by the picks.) |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 5:17 pm
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| Michael Douchette wrote: |
| The height of the strings definitely affects overall tone. There's a distinct difference in tones of a lap versus pedal guitar, and string height is part of that equation. Try slipping a flat piece of something under your strings on your pedal guitar, and play. The thinness will be very apparent. |
So Michael, you hear a non pedal steel as thinner sounding as a PSG of today's design (using the same string groups)?
A Bigsby too?
I go along with you that it affects the way it sounds... I have various theories about it... but I don't particularly hear steels with a smaller space between neck and strings as sounding thinner.
Yes, there are many (other) reasons why PSG's sound different than non-pedal steels... the changer having replaced the bridge being probably the most dramatic change in design and thus tonal response, IMHO.
... J-D. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 5:00 am
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As I said, it's only part of the equation. Pickup winding, basic construction, etc. are all factors. When I play "lap" (distortion) style on my pedal guitar, it is definitely missing a certain quality that my real lap has. I'm not sure that I want to say it's "thinner" on a lap quitar; there is a tonal difference.
I say "thinner" regarding the reduction of string height on a pedal guitar because that was indeed the effect caused when I used an old GEM Light fretboard on my Franklin when I was with Tammy. It had a detrimental effect on my tone, but so many of our venues were indoor, and so many cues where out of pitch blackness that it was a necessity.
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 6:28 am
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I agree with Michael on this one! This also applies to other instruments as well, especially acoustic ones. I prefer low action on acoustic guitars but you can take two of the same brand, model, etc. and set up one with a low action and the other with a higher and you'll hear that the higher action instrument is fatter and fuller in sound so it stands to reason that it would for a steel guitar too......JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 6:32 am
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One other thing to consider in the overall design of a Pedal Steel VS a "lap" steel is the changer. There is no changer on a lap steel just an anchoring point and bridge. With pedal steel guitars the changer is more than an "anchoring point" and with the mechanics and trying to make the body as narrow (height) as possible the changer must be on the top.
It's a give and take. If you lower the changer mechanism then you may have to have more space underneath.
I guess the neck could be thicker which would make it closer to the strings but as Mike pointed out there is a definite affect to the Tone.
(I had thought about buying one of those lighted fretboards, as I was mostly picking in the very poor lighted bars in Kansas City at the time and now I'm glad I didn't). |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 7:43 am
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Jack, I fully agree with you about the changer issue, but I would like to keep this one about the issue of string clearance above neck. Like Michael correctly pointed out, when comparing PSG and non-pedal (NPSG), the difference in string hight is just part of the equasion. Maybe I should have left the whole mentioning of PSG's vs. NPSG's out, but the subject naturally leads into comparing both steel guitar technologies because the historic evolution to the higher string clearance goes hand in hand with the establishment of the basic design of the "modern" PSG... eg: Sho-Bud and later models.
Still, let us not overlook the fact that some early PSG's like the Gibson ElectraHarp, the Harlin Bros. MultiHarp and even some Wright and Bigsby and foremost the original Fender PSG's did still have the lower string clearance... none of them is famous for it's "thin" sound.
I agree that it influences sound or tone, which ever you want to call it. I think Michaels example of just having slid "something" on top of the neck, affecting (in his case adversely) the tone of his instrument to be strikingly interesting, in the object placed in between the strings and the neck did not become an integral part of the instrument (and obviously, nor the strings). Could it really just be the closer presence of MASS to the strings?
One (maybe other) aspect of having strings closer or further away to the body, or shall we say "tone-board" is the change of "lever-action" this produces against the tone board or body. The further away the strings, the more their tension tends to stress the wood into a bending position... "detuning". In the same way, vibrations of the strings will flux into the tone board differently and it's altered response back into the strings too.
... J-D. |
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Don Walters
From:
Saskatchewan Canada
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 8:48 am
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| I just measured my Carter U12 and it's 1/2" from fretboard to strings |
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Ron Randall
From:
Dallas, Texas, USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 12:01 pm
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I just wish the distance from strings to fretboard were minimized so that parallalax could be reduced.
I guess all these factors must be balanced to have a great steel guitar. This is like any other man made thing. Most of the factors interact with each other. The designers job is to find the best combination.
My 2c |
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Mark Vinbury
From:
N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 1:18 pm
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My guess as to the reason string clearance has increasesd may be due to the switch from wood to aluminum fretboard slabs
Regular 4/4 maple could be planed down to whatever thickness right in the shop. Aluminum,however, arrived in standard thicknesses. The thicker the aluminum the more expensive (also heavier)whereas 4/4 maple was one price no matter what thickness you planed it to. |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 1:25 pm
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 You Da man Michael ! Michael i saw the video with you playing i think a Sho~Bud with Tammy at the Jamboree In The Hills and you did a killer job ! The tone was to die for ! This was a few years ago . Even on the net you sounded great ! Talk to you later ole buddie . G.P. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 7 Sep 2007 10:01 pm
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I don't understand how the distance between the strings and the body can affect the tone. The strings only make contact with the instrument at the nut and bridge. If you lower the strings or heighten the body without changing the dimensions of the body the only change is the air space around the strings. As long as you adjust the distance between the strings and the pickup, and the angle of the strings passing over the bridge and nut remain unchanged, so that the tension at those points stays the same, how on earth can the height of the strings have any influence whatsoever on the tone ? 
If you really have found some demonstatable difference then the next lap steel I build will have strings about 6" above the fingerboard.
Actually I've built lap steels with a removable fingerboard and the tone sounds identical whether the fingerboard is there or not.
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 8 Sep 2007 3:00 am
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Everything seems to affect the sustain and tone or the "charateristic tone" of a certain brand. On a bolt on aluminum neck, the number of screws holding the neck on, the tightness of the screws, etc can all affect tone and sustain. Mike has pointed out that adding the lighted fretboard to his aluminum neck guitar affected the sound - although I suspect it affected the resonance the aluminum neck has on the sound more than the distance to the strings.
The pickup doesn't play the part many think it does. My Franklin came with Lawrence 705 pickups. I changed to the Lawrence 710 pickups about 5 years ago and my Franklin still has the same "Franklin tone". I have a friend with an Emmons Legrande II that went from the stock single coil Emmons pickups to the Lawrence 710 pickups and it still sounds like an Emmons. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 8 Sep 2007 7:57 am
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 Hi Michael . I saw it on ''U-Tube'' i think . But i really don't know how i found it right now . Maybe someone knows how to find stuff like this . Regardless you did a super job my friend . G.P. |
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Bud Harger
From:
Belton, Texas by way of Baton Rouge, Louisiana
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Posted 8 Sep 2007 8:18 am Mike, I think I found it.
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Mike and Gary, try here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i12HiNvDGyg
I searched for "Tammy Wynette", then scrolled down to the video for "Jamboree in the Hills- 1993".
I hope that's it.
Best regards,
bUd |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 8 Sep 2007 5:47 pm
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| ...I suspect it affected the resonance the aluminum neck has on the sound more than the distance to the strings.... |
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Jack. If there's any perceivable difference in the sound, it's the dampening of the guitar body by adding extra material rather than the height of the strings. |
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Paul Brainard
From:
Portland OR
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Posted 11 Sep 2007 12:11 am
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I think one reason the string height affects the tone is that the nut is effectively a lever against the top of the guitar for transmitting each vibration. The longer (taller) the lever, the more leverage it has. This is why guitars of all varieties are louder when set up higher.
Also I've noticed (on a regular guitar) that the angle at which the strings go across the nut & bridge affects how stiff they are to bend. Try raising the action way up on an electric 6-string, retune (to the same tension) and see how much more difficult bends are than with the action lowered way down. Seems like this must be a factor in the mechanical feel of a pedal steel as well.
I'm not a builder but I would venture that the upshot is that higher strings favor a brighter tone and stiffer feel, while lower strings may tend towards warmth and softness. . . which generally seems to fit my experience with different steels as well. |
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