Cabinet Drop

[Brinton Payne]

I just bought a new steel - really nice SD10. Over time, it has slowly been slipping out of tune. I put new strings on and understand what this can do to tuning (initially) but also, in determining the problem, have noticed that when i hit the "a" pedal, it lowers my 'E's very slightly. I.E., if i mash my 'a' pedal down while playing an open "e", i can hear a slight lowering of the string? Is this normal or could this be causing it to go out of tune?
Thanks,
BP

[b0b]

That's normal. Many people tune their E strings a bit sharp so that when they tune the pedaled A note to 400Hz it will still be in tune.

[Ken Metcalf]

I like to tune the Es with the A-B pedals down and then chime in the Bs... when I am playing live with a band.

If you really want to see some cab. drop...
hit your B-C pedals and check your F#

Ken

[Brinton Payne]

Thanks for all of the input. Can someone give me the hz for the pedal/knee lever tunings? I am currently tuning open like this (only SD-10);
F# 440
D# 436.5
G# 436.5
E 440
B 439.5
G# 436.5
F# 438
E 440
D 439
B 439.5

Thanks again.

[David Doggett]

One or two Hz (4-8 cents) cabinet drop of the Es when the A and B pedals are pressed is fairly common. A rule of thumb is that differences of less than 5 cents are not noticeable when playing. So if the Es drop only about 1 Hz, you might as well ignore it. If the Es drop as much as 2 Hz (8 cents), that can be noticeable when playing open at the nut with the pedals down (your ear should automatically compensate when playing anywhere other than open at the nut).

If you have that much drop, and it bothers you, you might want to consider splitting the difference between the pedals-down and no-pedals situations. If you tune your As 440 with the pedals down, or tune your Es to a 440 reference with the pedals down, that will not help, because the Es will go sharp to 442 when you release the pedals. You may prefer to be sharp rather than flat, but whether you tune to 440 with the pedals up or down you will be 2 Hz off in one of the situations. My solution is to tune the open strings to a reference of 441. In other words just add 1 Hz to all the open string values you posted above. Now when you hit the pedals the Es will drop to 439. So either with or without the pedals you will only be 1 Hz (4 cents) off, which is tolerable for most of us.

[Colin Mclean]

I've experienced this with my Carter-starter, mostly the B&C pedals/F# string case. Not too bad though.

Is there no mechanical way to completely prevent this?

[Justin Griffith]

I've experienced this with my Carter-starter, mostly the B&C pedals/F# string case. Not too bad though.

Is there no mechanical way to completely prevent this?

Colin....Oh Boy.....
You have no idea what you just started
Do a search about cabinet drop.
Unless it is severe please don't worry yourself with it.

Best,
Justin

[Colin Mclean]

It drove me crazy when I first got the guitar...then I finally bought a tuner and found out I had been a half-step flat. After I fixed that, it seemed to get a lot better. I know that doesn't make sense...

It just seems to me like if physical movement of the changer fingers is causing it, there should be a way to prevent it.

[Justin Griffith]

Colin,
Glad you found part of your problem. I will try to send you a PM with my theory on cabinet drop.
In the meantime you might search for some info on the Emmons company's fix.

Best,
Justin

[Jack Stoner]

I tune the E's on my Franklin to Plus 2 cents (plus .5 hz). That's a compromise to help with the "cabinet drop".

[Donny Hinson]

As Justin said, if it's only a small amount of detuning, don't worry about it. Digital tuners are far more accurate than is usually required, and I often use the analogy "it's like measuring firewood length with micrometers". Though that's an exaggeration, so is the moaning and wailing we sometimes do about little things that don't make much difference at all. (Once the bar hits the strings, everything changes anyway.) Eventually, your ears should be able to tell you what's audibly "out" enough to worry about, and you'll make corrections (both in your tuning and your playing) based on what you hear, an not what's on some tuner readout.

It takes a great amount of skill and time just to play in tune, and the actual playing (and not how the guitar is tuned), is what's most important!

[b0b]

It just seems to me like if physical movement of the changer fingers is causing it, there should be a way to prevent it.

It's not in the movement of changer fingers. "Cabinet drop" is caused by the change in stress when the overall string tension increases and decreases.

Ever notice when you're putting on new strings - you put on one string and tune it, then put on another and tune that one. The first string has now gone flat because of the extra stress on the guitar. It's the same effect.

You may also see small amounts of "cabinet raise" on the F# string when lowering the E strings. It's visible on a good tuner, but it's subtle enough that it's hard to hear.

Cabinet drop can actually work in your favor on the F# strings. Ask me about it sometime.

[b0b]

Thanks for all of the input. Can someone give me the hz for the pedal/knee lever tunings? I am currently tuning open like this (only SD-10);
F# 440
D# 436.5
G# 436.5
E 440
B 439.5
G# 436.5
F# 438
E 440
D 439
B 439.5

Thanks again.

People will disagree, but I've had good luck with a tuning that looks something like this (converted from cents): [tab]F# 440
D# 439
G# 439 A 440
E 441 F 436
B 441 C# 438
G# 439
F# 440 G 442
E 441
D 441
B 441 [/tab]
It's not perfectly in tune, but I can play it in tune with other instruments and it doesn't matter if it drifts around a little bit. Plus it's easy to remember. I call it my "fault-tolerant" tuning.

[Danny James]

I hope you all don't mind my suggesting something here for you to try.

Don't touch any of the strings with your hand, pick a string and look at your tuner to see exactly where it's at.

Now lay the palm of your hand on that string for 15 seconds. Now pick that string again. You may see the tuning has changed considerably.

On a 6 string spanish guitar we usually tune with the strings in the open position.

Hold any string down at a fret and see if it is still right on where it should be on the tuner for that note.

I think most of us play a little out of tune technically and don't realize it.

On the steel guitars we compensate with our ears to make up some of the difference a lot of the time.

[Kevin Hatton]

I agree with Donny. One of the most important things in playing steel is developing your ear. Paul Franklin stressed this years ago. Learning to tune by ear is very important. Having a tuner is noisy situations is also important.